Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 618 of 1748 (837928)
08-11-2018 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 12:48 AM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
What if they don't drop dead but simply rise out of sight into the sky? (I don't think you'll be finding any corpses lying around).
I'm sure there will be all sorts of theories designed to explain it away though, since there will be quite a few "Christians" in name only left on the earth who will refuse to believe that the hated "fundamentalists" could be God's chosen.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 12:48 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 12:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 619 of 1748 (837929)
08-11-2018 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by jaywill
08-11-2018 12:00 AM


Readiness
Good straightforward point. What is the oil in the lamps of the five virgins who are ready to "go out to meet Him?" The Holy Spirit is what I've usually heard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 12:00 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 622 of 1748 (837940)
08-11-2018 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:34 AM


Re: Readiness
That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:34 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 623 of 1748 (837946)
08-11-2018 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by jaywill
08-11-2018 3:34 AM


Re: Readiness
Sorry if I've been getting you off course. When you joined the thread you seemed to have a definite topic you wanted to pursue, so whatever it was I'd like to see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jaywill, posted 08-11-2018 3:34 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 629 of 1748 (837970)
08-11-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 2:45 PM


Re: I always think of the "Rapture" as some mass suicide or mass killing.
Rarely does one see so much extravagantly meaningless verbiage in one place.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 2:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 3:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 1748 (837993)
08-11-2018 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 3:44 PM


Re: Do you care about 1st century Christian words/texts on the end times?
I see no point to anything you are saying, certainly no relevance to the topic of the Rapture as it started to be discussed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 3:44 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 8:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 634 of 1748 (838001)
08-11-2018 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by LamarkNewAge
08-11-2018 8:57 PM


Re: NOTE: Posts 604, 615, etc. are substanceless Faith posts.
Evidence for what? This isn't an academic exercise. I don't "hate" anything you've said, I just find it totally irrelevant and pointless. The subject has barely been broached, but the scripture behind it is well enough known for beginning the discussion. As usual you seem to be way off in some world of your own and I can't follow you. Are you personally anticipating the Rapture? Do you have any personal interest in being spiritually ready for it? You don't even consider yourself a Christian, do you?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 8:57 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-11-2018 10:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 637 of 1748 (838017)
08-12-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by jaywill
08-12-2018 7:44 AM


Re: Readiness
I don't want to belabor this, I need to study it more, but the actual phrase is "had no oil in their lamps" which could imply that they had not received the Holy Spirit. There is also the idea there that they had run out, so I admit it's open to your view. But there remains some question in my mind whether it is a matter of not continuing to be filled with the Spirit or never having been filled in the first place. If the latter that does call into question their standing as Christians at all, and that image of the door shut against them and Jesus' saying "I do not know you" is so final-sounding it is hard to imagine they are going to get another chance.
But we agree in any case that the oil represents the Holy Spirit and that we should be constantly being filled with the Spirit if we are to be ready for His coming. Which I think is a way of agreeing with you that we need to be always growing in sanctification.
We could talk about what we must do to be constantly filled with the Spirit.
But I'm also interested in what you think about the Great Tribulation which comes after the Rapture. I understand it to be the wrath of God on an ungodly world, from which prepared believers have been promised escape.
The image of an uncountable number of people waving palm branches ...
Rev 7:9 writes:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
seems to be a different group of saints than those taken in the Rapture. They are described as having come out of great tribulation, which implies that many will yet be saved during that period, but it appears to be a different kind of salvation than the Rapture.
Here is John Walvoord on these saints.
In contrast to chapter 6 which seems to give the chronological sequence of major events of the great tribulation, chapter 7 does not advance the narrative but directs attention to two major groups of saints in the tribulation. The opening portion of the chapter pictures the 144,000 representative of the godly remnant of Israel on earth in the great tribulation. The latter part of the chapter describes a great multitude of martyred dead in heaven, those who died as a testimony to their faith from every kindred, tongue, and nation.
The question has often been asked, Will anyone be saved after the rapture? The Scriptures clearly indicate that a great multitude of both Jews and Gentiles will trust in the Lord after the church is caught up to glory. Though the children of God living on earth at the time will be translated when Christ comes for His church, immediately a testimony will be raised up to the name of Christ through new converts among Jews and Gentiles. Though these are never described by the term church, they are constantly called saints, that is, those set apart as holy to God and saved through the sacrifice of Christ.
He believes the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Dozens of Protestant Reformers and their precursors saw it as the Roman Caesars, and I've been leaning to their view of these things, though the whole subject can be very confusing and hard to sort out.
In any case I'd like to know your opinion because you appear to be an avid student of all these things.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 6:56 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 639 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 640 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 PM Faith has replied
 Message 643 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 6:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 646 of 1748 (838058)
08-13-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 640 by jaywill
08-12-2018 7:44 PM


Re: Readiness
I really appreciate your remarks on spiritual life and hope they will inspire me to greater discipline. I'd rather keep the focus there than on possible disagreements about the scripture, but I'm going to take your view of the parable of the virgins as a reason to spend a lot more time in prayer and devotions. It's scary to think of missing the Rapture and having to be martyred in the Tribulation. I'm too old. But if that's what comes I'll need all the spiritual strength I can get, and there are so many people I care about that I don't want to have to go through that either maybe it would be helpful if I did stick around and go through it with them anyway.
I think it is very close. Do you?
Look forward to your view of Revelation 7.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by jaywill, posted 08-12-2018 7:44 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 647 of 1748 (838060)
08-13-2018 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 641 by LamarkNewAge
08-12-2018 8:14 PM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
LNA: The Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic, a heretical writing. Those are not the words of Jesus. If you care about what Jesus actually said, and I don't know if you do, I can recommend only the King James Bible, I the 1789 update. All the other Bibles we have these days are based on Greek texts that were at the very least altered by Gnostics in the first centuries. Yes this is controversial and this is just my opinion but it is based on quite a bit of study and it is given in case it might help pry you loose from your addiction to false teachings.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-12-2018 8:14 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Taq, posted 08-13-2018 4:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 651 of 1748 (838081)
08-13-2018 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Taq
08-13-2018 4:08 PM


Re: Matthew 25 and 22 seem somewhat materialistic and worldly. But what do they demand?
Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the New King James Bible? It appears to use the same source texts as the KJV. It is essentially a translation of the KJV into modern english.
I wish it were. I used it for many years and like the way it reads, but then found out that although it is supposedly based on the Greek Textus Receptus, which is what underlies the King James, they've changed thousands of words from the King James, not merely updated the language, and copied many readings from the other Bible Versions that are not based on the Textus Receptus. And I came to find the notes on most of the pages referring to readings from the "oldest" and supposedly superior Greek manuscripts, which are those that many have exposed to have been altered by early heretics, to be annoying and to undermine the authority of the scripture.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Taq, posted 08-13-2018 4:08 PM Taq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 653 of 1748 (838083)
08-13-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Bibles For America
Watchman Nee is one of my favorite teachers. I was never attracted to Witness Lee and kept seeing criticism of him as heretical but when I did some checking I felt that wasn't fair, though I haven't gone deeply into the questions about him.
I just looked up the Recovery version and see that like most/all the other modern Bibles it is based on the Nestle-Aland Critical Text which incorporates the heretical Greek texts Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which were surreptitiously substituted for the traditional Textus Receptus by the committee that in 1881 issued the revision that now underlies all modern Bibles. I've had a blog on this subject for years I titled "The Great Bible Hoax of 1881" where I've noted some of the main issues involved.
There can also be problems with the English translation apart from the Greek texts and I don't know about that in the case of the Recovery version.
After becoming aware of the problems with the modern Bibles I had to conclude that the King James version is the only trustworthy English Bible we have whatever our problems with the language or whatever small improvements in the translation might be needed. Its underlying Greek texts are reliable unlike those of the other versions, and I have to think it a very important factor that the men who translated it were known for both their scholarship and their godly lives, some known for hours of prayer a day. There is no one of that caliber on any of the translating committees for the modern Bibles. If there had been, most likely the hoax would have been exposed a long time ago.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 655 of 1748 (838096)
08-13-2018 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by LamarkNewAge
08-13-2018 9:02 PM


Re: Luke 3:22 is an example of manuscripts. Isaiah 7:14 is translation issue.
Would it be possible for you to take, say, one simple point that interests you, and present it in, say, one simple paragraph, stating why it interests you? Because all you are doing is multiplying words without purpose as far as I can see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:02 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 9:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 662 of 1748 (838111)
08-14-2018 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by jaywill
08-13-2018 10:07 PM


Re: Bibles For America
Jaywill, you seem to be answering both Phat and me in that post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2018 10:24 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 663 of 1748 (838117)
08-14-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by jaywill
08-13-2018 10:56 PM


You say the great multitude of Revelation 7 is those who came out of great tribulation (were martyred?) over all time, and I'll accept that for now, but is there a description of a Great Tribulation following the Rapture somewhere?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2018 10:56 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2018 10:51 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024