Christianity and the End Times

The idea of a large group of people dropping dead and their spirit ascending to heaven while other people remain alive just sounds so Heavens Gate-ish.That's just me.

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And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

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In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.

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Part of the problem is the fact that the Bible contradicts itself.1 Corinthians 15 indicates a spiritual (but not bodily) rising.Matthew 27:51-53 said this happened to certain(?) dead folks after Jesus Christ died:

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Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

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Matthew 27:51-53 might refer to flesh and blood.(what do you think?)1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says:

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For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

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I would assume this is a spiritual rising, since Paul wrote it.Luke said this:

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Luke 16:19-31

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19 There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

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22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

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25 But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

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27 He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

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29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

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30 ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

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31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’

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Saul spoke to the spirit of Samuel while his body was in the ground.(I admit that I am taking many different parts of the Christian Bible, and combining them all, so you can call me out for jumbling together a bunch of unrelated parts)The Rapture is difficult to give an analysis of, because it could very well be just the teaching of Paul (and much might be read into what Paul said anyway).Luke dates decades after Paul.At least the same Paul who wrote I Thessalonians also wrote I and II Corinthians.Paul went to paradise in the third heaven.The Rapture is a death while the world goes on?How does that relate to the 1000 year kingdom in Revelation 20?Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

How does this part of sacred scripture relate to the end times prophecy and the rapture?I have a link to the entire text of 4 Ezra in the King James Bible (the real King James had it, but most King James Bibles have been changed). 2 ESDRAS CHAPTER 1 KJVChapter 2

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And those that be dead will I raise up again from their places, and bring them out of the graves: for I have known my name in Israel.

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Remember thy children that sleep, for I shall bring them out of the sides of the earth, and shew mercy unto them: for I am merciful, saith the Lord Almighty.

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Arise up and stand, behold the number of those that be sealed in the feast of the Lord;

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39 Which are departed from the shadow of the world, and have received glorious garments of the Lord.

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40 Take thy number, O Sion, and shut up those of thine that are clothed in white, which have fulfilled the law of the Lord.

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41 The number of thy children, whom thou longedst for, is fulfilled: beseech the power of the Lord, that thy people, which have been called from the beginning, may be hallowed.

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42 I Esdras saw upon the mount Sion a great people, whom I could not number, and they all praised the Lord with songs.

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43 And in the midst of them there was a young man of a high stature, taller than all the rest, and upon every one of their heads he set crowns, and was more exalted; which I marvelled at greatly.

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44 So I asked the angel, and said, Sir, what are these?

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45 He answered and said unto me, These be they that have put off the mortal clothing, and put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God: now are they crowned, and receive palms.

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46 Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowneth them, and giveth them palms in their hands?

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47 So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world. Then began I greatly to commend them that stood so stiffly for the name of the Lord.

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48 Then the angel said unto me, Go thy way, and tell my people what manner of things, and how great wonders of the Lord thy God, thou hast seen.

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Chapter [quote] Chapter 6.

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18 And it said, "Behold, the days are coming, and it shall be that when I draw near to visit the inhabitants of the earth,
[19] and when I require from the doers of iniquity the penalty of their iniquity, and when the humiliation of Zion is complete,
[20] and when the seal is placed upon the age which is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and all shall see it together.
[21] Infants a year old shall speak with their voices, and women with child shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and dance.
[22] Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty;
[23] and the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall suddenly be terrified.
[24] At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, and the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.
[25]
"And it shall be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall himself be saved and shall see my salvation and the end of my world.

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[26] And they shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit.

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Chapter 6 cont

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29 After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

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30 And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

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31 And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

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32 And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

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33 And the most High shall appear upon the seat of judgment, and misery shall pass away, and the long suffering shall have an end:

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Se there verses from chapter 8

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5 For not of your own will did you come into the world, and against your will you depart, for you have been given only a short time to live.

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19 Therefore hear my voice, and understand my words, and I will speak before thee."
The beginning of the words of Ezra's prayer, before he was taken up. He said:

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Then this.16:74

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"Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.

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Jaywill said:

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You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.
And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

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In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.

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This was in the original King James until it was removed by later men.

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4 Ezra chapter 14
[1]
On the third day, while I was sitting under an oak, behold, a voice came out of a bush opposite me and said, "Ezra, Ezra."

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[2] And I said, "Here I am, Lord," and I rose to my feet.
[3] Then he said to me, "I revealed myself in a bush and spoke to Moses, when my people were in bondage in Egypt;
[4] and I sent him and led my people out of Egypt; and I led him up on Mount Sinai, where I kept him with me many days;
[5] and I told him many wondrous things, and showed him the secrets of the times and declared to him the end of the times. Then I commanded him, saying,
[6] `These words you shall publish openly, and these you shall keep secret.'
[7] And now I say to you;
[8] Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard;
[9] for you shall be taken up from among men, and henceforth you shall live with my Son and with those who are like you, until the times are ended.

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Chapter 16

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[74]
"Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them.

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Your interpretation?Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Jaywill said:

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As far as I could tell most of this discussion is about outward indications and evidences about Christ's second coming. If I entered the discussion I would put much more emphasis on spiritual catalysts leading to and causing Christ's second coming.
In Revelation 19, for example, its says that the bride has made herself ready. This is the wooing and compelling impetus for a longing Christ to come again for at least a representative remnant who prepare themselves to be in total union of love with Him.

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Am I right that that aspect has been less developed here ?

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Ho do you place Revelation 19 in with 1 Corinthians 15 * 1 Thessalonians 4?How do you place them all in relation to Revelation 20?How does the tribulation relate to the wedding feast?How do they all relate to the 1000 years in Revelation 20?Here is chapter 7 of the King James text of 4 Ezra.

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26 Behold, the time shall come, that these tokens which I have told thee shall come to pass, and the bride shall appear, and she coming forth shall be seen, that now is withdrawn from the earth.

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27 And whosoever is delivered from the foresaid evils shall see my wonders.

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28 For my son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him, and they that remain shall rejoice within four hundred years.

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29 After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

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30 And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

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31 And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

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32 And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

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33 And the most High shall appear upon the seat of judgment, and misery shall pass away, and the long suffering shall have an end:

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400 years are mentioned here.I still have trouble seeing where the immortality begins.

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42 He answered me, and said, This present life is not the end where much glory doth abide; therefore have they prayed for the weak.

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43 But the day of doom shall be the end of this time, and the beginning of the immortality for to come, wherein corruption is past,

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44 Intemperance is at an end, infidelity is cut off, righteousness is grown, and truth is sprung up.

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45 Then shall no man be able to save him that is destroyed, nor to oppress him that hath gotten the victory.

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46 I answered then and said, This is my first and last saying, that it had been better not to have given the earth unto Adam: or else, when it was given him, to have restrained him from sinning.

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47 For what profit is it for men now in this present time to live in heaviness, and after death to look for punishment?

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Is it for different times for different people?Is there a description in Revelation 19 of a wedding feast for those who died in a 1 Thessalonians 4 type of event (the rapture?)?Does the tribulation happen as Revelation 19 happens?Paul may or may not have had an idea of one group - Christians - dropping dead (while non Christians remained on the Earth) at the return described in 1 Thessalonians, but do you feel that the later authors of Revelation and 4 Ezra had this in mind?

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19 Therefore hear my voice, and understand my words, and I shall speak before thee. This is the beginning of the words of Esdras, before he was taken up: and I said,

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34 For what is man, that thou shouldest take displeasure at him? or what is a corruptible generation, that thou shouldest be so bitter toward it?

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35 For in truth them is no man among them that be born, but he hath dealt wickedly; and among the faithful there is none which hath not done amiss.

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36 For in this, O Lord, thy righteousness and thy goodness shall be declared, if thou be merciful unto them which have not the confidence of good works.

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inheritance: for thou art merciful unto thy creature.

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46 Then answered he me, and said, Things present are for the present, and things to cometh for such as be to come.

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47 For thou comest far short that thou shouldest be able to love my creature more than I: but I have ofttimes drawn nigh unto thee, and unto it, but never to the unrighteous.

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48 In this also thou art marvellous before the most High:

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49 In that thou hast humbled thyself, as it becometh thee, and hast not judged thyself worthy to be much glorified among the righteous.

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50 For many great miseries shall be done to them that in the latter time shall dwell in the world, because they have walked in great pride.

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55 And therefore ask thou no more questions concerning the multitude of them that perish.

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61

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And therefore is my judgment now at hand.

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62 These things have I not shewed unto all men, but unto thee, and a few like thee. Then answered I and said,

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63 Behold, O Lord, now hast thou shewed me the multitude of the wonders, which thou wilt begin to do in the last times

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Chapter 9

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1 He answered me then, and said, Measure thou the time diligently in itself: and when thou seest part of the signs past, which I have told thee before,

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2 Then shalt thou understand, that it is the very same time, wherein the Highest will begin to visit the world which he made.

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3 Therefore when there shall be seen earthquakes and uproars of the people in the world:

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4 Then shalt thou well understand, that the most High spake of those things from the days that were before thee, even from the beginning.

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5 For like as all that is made in the world hath a beginning and an end, and the end is manifest:

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6 Even so the times also of the Highest have plain beginnings in wonder and powerful works, and endings in effects and signs.

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7 And every one that shall be saved, and shall be able to escape by his works, and by faith, whereby ye have believed,

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8 Shall be preserved from the said perils, and shall see my salvation in my land, and within my borders: for I have sanctified them for me from the beginning.

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9 Then shall they be in pitiful case, which now have abused my ways: and they that have cast them away despitefully shall dwell in torments.

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Chapter 12 talks about some being left behind (Jews not deported is just a symbolic plot device and is part of a larger type?)

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1 And it came to pass after seven days, I dreamed a dream by night:

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14 Thou hast shewed thy servant these wonders from the beginning, and hast counted me worthy that thou shouldest receive my prayer:

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15 Shew me now yet the interpretation of this dream.

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16 For as I conceive in mine understanding, woe unto them that shall be left in those days and much more woe unto them that are not left behind!

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17 For they that were not left were in heaviness.

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18 Now understand I the things that are laid up in the latter days, which shall happen unto them, and to those that are left behind.

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19 Therefore are they come into great perils and many necessities, like as these dreams declare.

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20 Yet is it easier for him that is in danger to come into these things, than to pass away as a cloud out of the world, and not to see the things that happen in the last days. And he answered unto me, and said,

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21 The interpretation of the vision shall I shew thee, and I will open unto thee the thing that thou hast required.

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22 Whereas thou hast spoken of them that are left behind, this is the interpretation:

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23 He that shall endure the peril in that time hath kept himself: they that be fallen into danger are such as have works, and faith toward the Almighty.

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24 Know this therefore, that they which be left behind are more blessed than they that be dead.

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25 This is the meaning of the vision: Whereas thou sawest a man coming up from the midst of the sea:

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26 The same is he whom God the Highest hath kept a great season, which by his own self shall deliver his creature: and he shall order them that are left behind.

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27 And whereas thou sawest, that out of his mouth there came as a blast of wind, and fire, and storm;

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28 And that he held neither sword, nor any instrument of war, but that the rushing in of him destroyed the whole multitude that came to subdue him; this is the interpretation:

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29 Behold, the days come, when the most High will begin to deliver them that are upon the earth.

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30 And he shall come to the astonishment of them that dwell on the earth.

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46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,

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47 The Highest shall stay the springs of the stream again, that they may go through: therefore sawest thou the multitude with peace.

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48 But those that be left behind of thy people are they that are found within my borders.

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49 Now when he destroyeth the multitude of the nations that are gathered together, he shall defend his people that remain.

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50 And then shall he shew them great wonders.

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I wonder if the text that talks about the Israelites leaving (Jerusalem where the law isn't followed?) to follow the law, he is describing these tribes as Christians?

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Then said I, O Lord that bearest rule, shew me this: Wherefore have I seen the man coming up from the midst of the sea?

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52 And he said unto me, Like as thou canst neither seek out nor know the things that are in the deep of the sea: even so can no man upon earth see my Son, or those that be with him, but in the day time.

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53 This is the interpretation of the dream which thou sawest, and whereby thou only art here lightened.

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54 For thou hast forsaken thine own way, and applied thy diligence unto my law, and sought it.

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I don't know.But is this a description of Non-Christian Jews being "left behind" from the rapture?They are described as more blessed than those who left.Because they will be defended in the tribulation?I have no idea if these views were even held in the late 1st century.Chapter 13 talks about a death of the body (of Ezra)?

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8 That thou lay up in thy heart the signs that I have shewed, and the dreams that thou hast seen, and the interpretations which thou hast heard:

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9 For thou shalt be taken away from all, and from henceforth thou shalt remain with my Son, and with such as be like thee, until the times be ended.

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Then answered I before thee, and said,

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20 Behold, Lord, I will go, as thou hast commanded me, and reprove the people which are present: but they that shall be born afterward, who shall admonish them? thus the world is set in darkness, and they that dwell therein are without light.

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21 For thy law is burnt, therefore no man knoweth the things that are done of thee, or the work that shall begin.

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22 But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.

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This site has discussion on the tribulation. 2 ESDRAS CHAPTER 13 KJVScholars date this book at around 100 A.D.Chapter 13 seems to describe the deported Israelites as following the law?

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40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.

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41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,

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42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.

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The Jews remained, but I wonder if this is a description of non-Christian Jews.I ask again, can the tribes who left to follow the law possibly be Christians in this 100 AD book that is now sacred Christian scripture?This was a Christian authored book.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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You should tend to the actual words written in Scripture very carefully.
And you have the Old Testament example of the patriarch Enoch. He walked with God and was not found at all because God took him. Genesis 5:22-24. All the others lived so long and then it records that they died. Enoch is an exception.

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In reading about a Bible subject one must firstly master the facts as they are written. Then we can go on to interpretations - as to which is better. You have to master the facts of the details as they are expressed.

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Does 4 Ezra 14:9 describe a rapture of the body (with soul) of Ezra or the death of the body and rapture of the soul?

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The Survivors of Israel: A Reconsideration of the Theology of Pre-Christian Judaism
Mark Adam Elliot

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p.465

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That this passage refers to Ezra's being "taken up" would suggest that, like Enoch and Elijah, this ancient worthy was viewed as possessing a "continuing life".

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This was a late 1st century AD Christian book (and it is in most Bible's today including the real King James).

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The Ascension of the Messiah in Lukan Christology
By Arie W. Zwiep

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p.74

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Ezra's body being taken up to heaven this is implied by his close association with Enoch and Elijah, even though occasionally his departure is described in terms of death (7:15; 8:5; 10:34) (supra 36 n.2). That a chronological limit is set on Ezra's presence in heaven (usquequo finiantur tempora) suggests an expected return of Ezra in the end ("the decisive point in the eschatological sequence' (Stone), i.e. the inauguration of the Messianic Kingdom).

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Ezra seemed be die (though he might not have been described as doing so in 4 Ezra) and he was "taken up" to be with Jesus until the end of the tribulation.Just like people being raptured (in a mass death as described by rapture proponents) to be with Jesus during the last days on earth before the end.Right?

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9 For thou shalt be taken away from all, and from henceforth thou shalt remain with my Son, and with such as be like thee, until the times be ended.

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2 ESDRAS CHAPTER 14 KJV

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This was written by a contemporary of the author of Revelation.The "taken up" is clearly written with the writings of Paul in mind.This book did indeed have the Holy SpiritThis is from the same chapter 14

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done of thee, or the work that shall begin.

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22 But if I have found grace before thee, send the Holy Ghost into me, and I shall write all that hath been done in the world since the beginning, which were written in thy law, that men may find thy path, and that they which will live in the latter days may live.

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2 ESDRAS CHAPTER 14 KJV

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The Holy Spirit was part of the theology of this book, 4 Ezra (also known as 2 Esdras) that was preserved in sacred writ throughout European Christendom.Even if one rejects The Bible as being 100% the "Word of God", you must acknowledge that this was a Christian book contemporary with the book of Revelation.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

I will narrow down the quotations.There are VERY PRECISE references to certain New Testament prophecy themes.I will quote 4 Ezra from chapter 6, verses 26 and 32.I want to know where you place this in relation to:1 Thessalonians 41 Corinthians 15Revelation 19Revelation 20

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4 Ezra 6:26

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And they shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit.

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4 Ezra 6:32

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And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

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I suppose you will never answer the question about whether 4 Ezra describes Ezra passing away (death) when he is "taken up" to be with Jesus before the end of the tribulation.Faith, do you care about 1st century Christian texts and opinions, or modern man's commentary?You will ignore the words or the former and slobber over the latter with undulating admiration and wonder.QUESTION FOR FAITH.What other early Christian text do you have that so clearly references the exact same issues and events as 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation 19, Revelation 20, 1 Corinthians 15?Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

You 100% reject any sort of early Christian views on the issues. Especially a pre-100 AD text.(You just want to blather without any attempt to even use the Bible to back up other parts of the Bible like 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 backing up any claim of yours)You lack integrity.4 Ezra has seals and trumps like Revelation and 1 Corinthians 15.This early Christian prophecy text has parallels as seen here in chapter 2

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2 Esdras 2

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Then I asked an angel, Who are these, my lord? 45 He answered and said to me, These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and have confessed the name of God. Now they are being crowned, and receive palms. 46 Then I said to the angel, Who is that young man who is placing crowns on them and putting palms in their hands? 47 He answered and said to me, He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world.

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Like this here in 1 Corinthians 15(which itself is written by Paul who wrote 1 Thessalonians 4)

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39 Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory.

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42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

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and parallels to this too in 1 Corinthians 15 .

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50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters,[l] is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,[m] but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

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Clement of Alexandria quoted 4 Ezra (which is chapter 3-14 of 2 Esdras), so it was used by Christians in the 100s AD.Here is Encyclopedia Britannica (vol4 , p.557) on 2 Esdras.

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The central portion of the work (chapters 3-14), consisting of 7 visions revealed to the seer Salathiel-Ezra, was written in Aramaic by an unknown Jew around AD 100. In the mid-2nd century AD, a Christian author added to an introductory portion (chapters 1-2) to the Greek edition of the bok, and a century later another Christian writer appended chapters 15-16 to the same edition. It is possible that the whole Greek edition (from which all subsequent translations were derived, the Aramaic version having been lost) was edited by a Christian since there are passages in the central Jewish section that reflect Christian doctrines in original sin and Christology.

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This book is canonical in the Ethiopian church. The Ethiopian, Syriac, Armenian, Coptic, Arabic and all pre-Latin versions has a much longer chapter 7 than the Latin versions.Scholars now know exactly what happened to cause the Latin versions to loose 70 verses in chapter 7.2 Esdras - WikipediaCodex Sangermanensis I - WikipediaFirst, know that this dates, for certain to the pre-100 AD year.

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In the case of 4 Ezra, the identification of the eagle’s heads in the Eagle Vision (chaps. 11—12) as the Flavian emperors leads us to the conclusion that the work was composed in
the time of the Roman emperor Domitian (81—96 ce) and most likely during the latter part of his reign. Indeed, its date can be set more precisely to the last decade of the first century ce.

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http://www.augsburgfortress.org/...ds/9780800699680Intro.pdf

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Chapter 7 (in this EARLY Christian writing) is important when its comes to body resurrection issues.Here is the Good News Translation.2 Esdras 7 - GNTA Bible - Bible Study ToolsHere is the NRSV2 Esdras 7 NRSVUE - Response to Ezra’s Questions - When I - Bible Gateway(The King James is based on the chopped off Latin manuscript, the above 2 are based on the older translations.)There is a question and answer on what happens to the soul after death and before Judgment Day.There are different answers depending on whether those have or have not "kept the way of the Most High".Here was the question in verse 75

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I answered and said, If I have found favor in your sight, O Lord, show this also to your servant: whether after death, as soon as everyone of us yields up the soul, we shall be kept in rest until those times come when you will renew the creation, or whether we shall be tormented at once?

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Another question in verses 100-101.

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100 Then I answered and said, Will time therefore be given to the souls, after they have been separated from the bodies, to see what you have described to me?

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101 He said to me, They shall have freedom for seven days, so that during these seven days they may see the things of which you have been told, and afterwards they shall be gathered in their habitations.

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Verses 112-115.

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He answered me and said, This present world is not the end; the full glory does not remain in it; therefore those who were strong prayed for the weak. 113 But the day of judgment will be the end of this age and the beginning of the immortal age to come, in which corruption has passed away, 114 sinful indulgence has come to an end, unbelief has been cut off, and righteousness has increased and truth has appeared. 115 Therefore no one will then be able to have mercy on someone who has been condemned in the judgment, or to harm someone who is victorious.

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Chapter 6 has seals and trumps. A body (if a person is still alive) turning into a spirit.

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20 When the seal is placed upon the age that is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the face of the firmament, and all shall see my judgment[f] together. 21 Children a year old shall speak with their voices, and pregnant women shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and leap about. 22 Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty; 23 the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall suddenly be terrified. 24 At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.

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25 It shall be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall be saved and shall see my salvation and the end of my world. 26 And they shall see those who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth’s[g] inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit. 27 For evil shall be blotted out, and deceit shall be quenched

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You haven't even matched 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.You never attempted to match them to Revelation 19-20.Your words are hollow, and you can't site a single early source to back up anything you say.You can't even offer any harmony of the letters of Paul.

Absent any evidence at all.No wonder she hates it that I am quoting a 1st century Christian prophetic writing.It is too close to the views of the Biblical writers for her comfort.

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I don't "hate" anything you've said, I just find it totally irrelevant and pointless. The subject has barely been broached, but the scripture behind it is well enough known for beginning the discussion.

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So, what exactly is your point in posting then.Which scripture did you quote so far (I honestly forgot anything you and jaywill quoted).I am at a loss and where should I begin (you posted nothing)In post 215, I recall you made a claim of "7 years" tribulation. There is no "7 years tribulation" anywhere, is there?

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You don't even consider yourself a Christian, do you?

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Start by quoting the Christian Bible to back up the 7 year thingy.That included the Hebrew Bible, naturally.When did this 7 year thingy first start?Which Church Father (if any) ever had this 7 year interpretation?EDITHow soon I forget. Jaywill did mention Revelation 19 after he blathered about "the bride". That was one reason I thought to bring up 2 Esdras (I made the mistake of calling the entire thing "4 Ezra" but chapters 1-2 are called "5 Ezra" by scholars, and the chapters 3-14 or 2 Esdras are "4 Ezra", and 15-16 are "6 Ezra". I quoted a verse from chapter 16 and called it "4 Ezra") and the other closely-related reason was the "rapture" issues.(my only quote of chapter 16 was this :Hear, my elect," says the Lord. "Behold, the days of tribulation are at hand, and I will deliver you from them)ALSO, the Russian Church considers is canonical just like the Ethiopian (I did not know the former held it to be and I don't know much about the circumstances of the latter).Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Lack of oil is materialistic and earthy (btw in Hebrew oil and sperm are the same word and it actually is the very word we get SEMON from)jaywill

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The foolish virgins do not perish eternally. But they are late for the celebration.
They end up paying the same price for the extra oil in the vessel anyway. But they do so LATE.

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Faith

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That's a good framework for studying it I think, but the foolish virgins had the door shut in their face so there isn't much to support the idea that they would later join the wise virgins.

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Look at Matthew 22.The lack of garmets is an issue.

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11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

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12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

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13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

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Many are called by few chosen?The whole world?Then Christians have problems too:Only 5 out of 10 Christians had the oil to be saved.Now we have a deeper meaning in this post:

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ALL of the lamps GOING OUT must mean that ALL were burning and ALL had oil.

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I would take it then that the going OUT of the lamp's lighting means that it is manifest that REGENERATION was not enough needed for the festive celebration of the specific joys of Christ's return commencing the millennial kingdom.

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Remember that this parable pertains to the righteousness of the KINGDOM - the government of God. Love from the saints towards the Bridegroom is also a matter of KINGDOM government for the next age -

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I am reminded of the words of Jesus in sayings 24 and 37 of the Gospel of Thomas

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Logos of Jesus 24

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His disciples said to him, "Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it."

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He said to them, "Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness."

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Logos of Jesus 37

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His disciples said, "When will you become revealed to us and when shall we see you?"

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Jesus said, "When you disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments and place them under your feet like little children and tread on them, then will you see the son of the living one, and you will not be afraid"

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It seems Jesus might have been less materialistic than some verses indicate.But The Gospel of Thomas had rules too.

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Saying 26

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Jesus said, "You see the mote in your brother's eye, but you do not see the beam in your own eye. When you cast the beam out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to cast the mote from your brother's eye."

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Saying 27
"If you do not fast as regards the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the Sabbath as a Sabbath, you will not see the father."

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Naturally anything to do with Sabbaths (and for that matter Synagogues) will be seen as outdated to today's Christians, I only quoted 27 because it was right there with 26.But there are always rules and laws for the faithful to follow, and lots of debate on what coults as the real thing.

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In Thomas's gospel, then, as in John, Matthew, and Luke, we sometimes find sayings that seem to contradict each other. For example, both John and Thomas include some sayings suggesting that those who come to know God are very fewa chosen few. Such sayings echo traditional teaching about divine election, and teach that God chooses those who are able to know him; while the cluster of sayings I take as the key to interpreting Thomas suggest instead that everyone, in creation, receives an innate capacity to know God.

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(quote from book, Beyond Belief, by PagelsThere is no agreement on how to follow the founders of the religion.The 100 AD readers of the Gospel of Thomas (much like the Gospel of Matthew) would likely have looked down on those who eat meat and don't follow the Sabbath.The rules determine the interpretation of prophecies.The readers of these commands (in the Gospel of Matthew) would not see today's readers of the Gospel as heeding the warnings.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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I also have no heart to refer to non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas to derive ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books.

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Now that you mention it, can you please tell me what canon that would be.

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The Parables of Jesus
RED LETTER EDITION
A report of the Jesus Seminar
Robert Funk
1988 Polebridge Press

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p.83
canon

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a collection or authoritative list of books accepted as holy scripture. The canon was determined for Roman Catholics at the Council of Trent in 1546 C.E. ; it has never been determined for Protestants, except by common consent.

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Is it the 1546 canon?Or is the it the popular consent Roman Catholic-lite "Protestant canon" ?Is the the "holy" inspiration of the "holy" men in the 2nd to 4th centuries?A Baptist publisher has a timeline, called "New Testament Canonization Process"The publisher is Holman.HOLMAN STUDENT BIBLE DICTIONARY
BY KAREN DOCKREY
JOHNNIE & PHYLLIS GODWIN
(1993 HOLMAN BIBLE PUBLISHERS; NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE)There is a graph on page 15, and I am presenting it horizontally, with a very changed format. I am skipping no words, but don't consider this a precise quote due to the radically changed format to make my quote.

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NEW TESTAMENT CANONIZATION PROCESS

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0-180 A.D. Early Fathers quote Apocryphal books as Scripture: first challenged by Origen

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200 Muratorian Canon Lacks: Hebrews 3 John

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250 Origen’s New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude

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300 Eusebius New Testament Lacks: Hebrews James 2 Peter 2 &3 John Jude Doubts authorship of Revelation

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400 New Testament Fixed by the Council of Carthage

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I assume that you don't consider the Ethiopian and Russian churches to be popular enough in your culture, but is your line - "ANY major insight into the revelation of the canonical books" - tied to anything concrete or is it just a soundbite meant to be passed over?

Does the Bible have study notes?I was about to tell jaywill I might have had (around 10-15 years ago) a little New Testament from them.Now that I saw your post, I am pretty sure it is the same thing.I saw something once that caught my attention.Does the text for Acts 15:20 (or roundabout) have study note saying that James was still captive to the law?I kept the little New Testament just for that note.(the note might have been around James 2 or Galatians 2 and of course Acts 21)EDIT I can't find it online, and was about to give up, but now I see that my New Testament was the STUDY BIBLE. I get hammered by evangelists in New York (usually Puerto Rican protestants) and often have Bible's given to me. I kept this one for a while, but it was so small that I lost it.)Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Should "This day I have begotten you" be in the Luke 3:22 baptism story of Luke or not?It is in the canonical (Roman Catholic authored) Letter to the Hebrews (albeit placed in the context of creation) and the Hebrew Psalms.I think it was taken out but was in the oldest gospels.SECOND ISSUE.And what is your opinion of translators using the Greek Septuagint quotation (with the Greek word "virgin") a single word in the Isaiah 7:14 text (for which the entire Septuagint verse was used and embedded in the Greek Gospel of Matthew)?Isn't it dishonest for Old Testament translators to claim to be quoting the Masorah for the Old Testament but then to smuggle in a Greek word?I'm talking about the Old Testament.The Jewish Christians were unanimous in asserting that the Hebrew said "young women" (As even you will admit that it did).And that is just the Old Testament issue.(there is also the thorny issue of there being a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew that Jewish Christians used and even Jerome said it was the original)Here is the earliest mention or the Ebionites (around 180-190 AD).http://www.mesacc.edu/...81/handouts/irenaeus-ebionites.htmlIrenaeus said:

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Adversus Haereses (Book I, Chapter 26)

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Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavour to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practise circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.

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Adversus Haereses (Book III, Chapter 21)

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God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. But not as some allege, among those now presuming to expound the Scripture, [thus:] " BEHOND, A YOUNG WOMAN SHALL CONCEIVE, AND BRING FORTH A SON," Isaiah 7:14 as Theodotion the Ephesian has interpreted, and Aquila of Pontus, both Jewish proselytes. The Ebionites, following these, assert that He was begotten by Joseph; thus destroying, as far as in them lies, such a marvellous dispensation of God, and setting aside the testimony of the prophets which proceeded from God.

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Adversus Haereses (Book V, Chapter 1)

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Vain also are the Ebionites, who do not receive by faith into their soul the union of God and man, but who remain in the old leaven of [the natural] birth, and who do not choose to understand that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Most High did overshadow her.

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The RSV translators used the accurate translation (young woman) of the Masorah for the Old Testament Bible section (leaving the accurate Greek translation "virgin" for Matthew), for the first translation, but the public demanded the O.T. text be changed to "virgin".1 step forward, 1 back.Justine Martyr had a dialogue with Tyrpho the Jew (an actual Jew and not a Jewish Christian), and the issue of the YOUNG WOMAN (in the Hebrew scriptures) came up multiple times.And Justin quoted Luke 3:22 in this exchange.http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/...dialoguetrypho.html

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CHAPTER LXXXVII -- TRYPHO MAINTAINS IN OBJECTION THESE WORDS: "AND SHALL REST ON HIM," ETC. THEY ARE EXPLAINED BY JUSTIN

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Hereupon Trypho, after I had spoken these words, said,

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"Do not now suppose that I am endeavouring, by asking what I do ask, to overturn the statements you have made; but I wish to receive information respecting those very points about which I now inquire. Tell me, then, how, when the Scripture asserts by Isaiah, 'There shall come forth a rod from the root of Jesse; and a flower shall grow up from the root of Jesse; and the Spirit of God shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and piety: and the spirit of the fear of the Lord shall fill Him:' (now you admitted to me," continued he, "that this referred to Christ, and you maintain Him to be pre-existent God, and having become incarnate by God's will, to be born man by the Virgin how He can be demonstrated to have been pre-existent, who is filled with the powers of the Holy Ghost, which the Scripture by Isaiah enumerates, as if He were in lack of them?"

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I will combine the rest of chapter 87 and all of 88 (I am changing the format slightly plus adding caps)Justin replied:

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Then I replied, "You have inquired most discreetly and most prudently, for truly there does seem to be a difficulty; but listen to what I say, that you may perceive the reason of this also. The Scripture says that these enumerated powers of the Spirit have come on Him, not because He stood in need of them, but because they would rest in Him, i.e., would find their accomplishment in Him, so that there would be no more prophets in your nation after the ancient custom: and this fact you plainly perceive. For after Him no prophet has arisen among you. Now, that [you may know that] your prophets, each receiving some one or two powers from God, did and spoke the things which we have learned from the Scriptures, attend to the following remarks of mine. Solomon possessed the spirit of wisdom, Daniel that of understanding and counsel, Moses that of might and piety, Elijah that of fear, and Isaiah that of knowledge; and so with the others: each possessed one power, or one joined alternately with another; also Jeremiah, and the twelve [prophets], and David, and, in short, the rest who existed amongst you. Accordingly He rested, i.e., ceased, when He came, after whom, in the times of this dispensation wrought out by Him amongst men, it was requisite that such gifts should cease from you; and having received their rest in Him, should again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He imparts to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof. I have already said, and do again say, that it had been prophesied that this would be done by Him after His ascension to heaven. It is accordingly said, 'He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, He gave gifts unto the sons of men.' And again, in another prophecy it is said: 'And it shall come to pass after this, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh, and on My servants, and on My handmaids, and they shall prophesy.'

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CHAPTER LXXXVIII -- CHRIST HAS NOT RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT ON ACCOUNT OF POVERTY.

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"Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God; so that it was prophesied that the powers enumerated by Isaiah would come upon Him, not because He needed power, but because these would not continue after Him. And let this be a proof to you, namely, what I told you was done by the Magi from Arabia, who as soon as the Child was born came to worship Him, for even at His birth He was in possession of His power; and as He grew up like all other men, by using the fitting means, He assigned its own [requirements] to each development, and was sustained by all kinds of nourishment, and waited for thirty years, more or less, until John appeared before Him as the herald of His approach, and preceded Him in the way of baptism, as I have already shown. And then, when Jesus had gone to the river Jordan, where John was baptizing, and when He had stepped into the water, a fire was kindled in the Jordan; and when He came out of the water, the Holy Ghost lighted on Him like a dove, the apostles of this very Christ of ours wrote. Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit. For it was not His entrance into Jerusalem sitting on an ass, which we have showed was prophesied, that empowered Him to be Christ, but it furnished men with a proof that He is the Christ; just as it was necessary in the time of John that men have proof, that they might know who is Christ. For when John remained by the Jordan, and preached the baptism of repentance, wearing only a leathern girdle and a vesture made of camels' hair, eating nothing but locusts and wild honey, men supposed him to be Christ; but he cried to them, 'I am not the Christ, but the voice of one crying; for He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.' And when Jesus came to the Jordan, He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes; by which He taught the symbols of righteousness and an active life); but then the Holy Ghost, and for man's sake, as I formerly stated, lighted on Him in the form of a dove, and there came at the same instant from the heavens a voice, which was uttered also by David when he spoke, personating Christ, what the Father would say to Him: 'THOU ART MY SON: THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE;' [the Father] saying that His generation would take place for men, at the time when they would become acquainted with Him: 'Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.' "

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Luke 3:22 (the Hebrew Matthew used by Ebionites also hade this type of Baptism)was quoted in 140(or 150 or 160 or whenever Justin wrote this)to say "this day have I begotten thee".But no modern translation uses this in its translation, despite the textual witness evidenceEdited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

You said there are 2 issues when it comes to translations:The actual original language texts used(and/or)The translation itself.Correct?