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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Suspended Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
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Message 76 of 84 (834018)
05-29-2018 10:49 AM

Take it to the Trump Bashing Thread
I do not want this thread to become a political thread which just means a Trump-bashing fest. I'm sorry I posted anything at all about Trump. Forgive me but I'm too aware of the Leftist agenda against him to take anything anyone here says seriously. Sorry. You may be right about some of it, probably are, but I do not care because I know there is a sick agenda behind most of it and I don't want the job of trying to sort it out. Take it to the Trump Presidency Bashing thread.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Message 77 of 84 (834019)
05-29-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
05-29-2018 10:49 AM

the Trump support base.
I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.

The really sad thing is that is an accurate analysis of his support base.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Posts: 1982
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009

Message 78 of 84 (834028)
05-29-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
05-29-2018 8:28 AM

Tangle concludes:
Unfortunately there are more stupid people than clever people but they all get the same vote.

The Achilles Heel of a true Democracy, alas. But the alternatives, such as a Meritocracy, are subject to even more corruption.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

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Message 79 of 84 (834029)
05-29-2018 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by xongsmith
05-29-2018 1:59 PM

Xongsmith writes:

The Achilles Heel of a true Democracy, alas. But the alternatives, such as a Meritocracy, are subject to even more corruption.

Yeh, that's why we should spend whatever it costs to educate people and be very careful what questions we ask them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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Message 80 of 84 (834032)
05-29-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
05-28-2018 12:50 PM

Red Letter vs Old Testament precepts
also, keep in mind that OT populations had no "saved" people whereas NT Christians are...which shifts awareness of responsibility in regards to electing a good government...precisely what the red letter bunch claims.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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Message 81 of 84 (834043)
05-29-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
05-29-2018 10:49 AM

Re: Take it to the Trump Bashing Thread
You may be right about some of it, probably are, but I do not care because I know there is a sick agenda behind most of it and I don't want the job of trying to sort it out.

You don't have to do any sorting. It's already been done.

Take it to the Trump Presidency Bashing thread.

This thread is about Red Letter Christians criticizing Trump. It is going to be difficult to declare Trump criticism off topic here, because those criticisms often serve as examples of Trump doing things that no evangelical ought to support, but which they surely do. Your wish won't be granted.

Kudos on not falling into the same category by finding this particular instance unacceptable.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

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Message 82 of 84 (837660)
08-07-2018 10:59 AM

A Universalist Unitarian caused the 1872 Democratic platform to call for civil rights
It resulted in the Republican candidate winning most of the south, which was the ONLY election in the 19th century that the GOP WON SOUTHERN ELECTORAL VOTES.

The candidate was Horace Greeley and he was a Liberal Republican.

(The Democrats endorsed him and changed their platform to match his support for civil rights)

He lost by 56% to 44% to the Republican.

All quotes from:


See last quote for the Democratic Convention and its platform.


Horace Greeley (February 3, 1811 – November 29, 1872) was an American author and statesman who was the founder and editor of the New-York Tribune, among the great newspapers of its time. Long active in politics, he served briefly as a congressman from New York, and was the unsuccessful candidate of the new Liberal Republican party in the 1872 presidential election against incumbent President Ulysses S. Grant.

Greeley was born to a poor family in Amherst, New Hampshire. He was apprenticed to a printer in Vermont and went to New York City in 1831 to seek his fortune. He wrote for or edited several publications and involved himself in Whig Party politics, taking a significant part in William Henry Harrison's successful 1840 presidential campaign. The following year, he founded the Tribune, which became the highest-circulating newspaper in the country through weekly editions sent by mail. Among many other issues, he urged the settlement of the American West, which he saw as a land of opportunity for the young and the unemployed. He popularized the slogan "Go West, young man, and grow up with the country."[a] He endlessly promoted utopian reforms such as socialism, vegetarianism, agrarianism, feminism, and temperance, while hiring the best talent he could find.


Greeley, in his paper, initially supported the Whig program.[25] As divisions between Clay and President Tyler became apparent, he supported the Kentucky senator and looked to a Clay nomination for president in 1844.[24] However, when Clay was nominated by the Whigs, he was defeated by the Democrat, former Tennessee governor James K. Polk, though Greeley worked hard on Clay's behalf.[26] Greeley had taken positions in opposition to slavery as editor of The New-Yorker in the late 1830s, opposing the annexation of the slaveholding Republic of Texas to the United States.[27] In the 1840s, Greeley became an increasingly vocal opponent of the expansion of slavery.[25]

Greeley hired Margaret Fuller in 1844 as first literary editor of the Tribune, for which she wrote over 200 articles. She lived with the Greeley family for several years, and when she moved to Italy, he made her a foreign correspondent.[28] He promoted the work of Henry David Thoreau, serving as literary agent and seeing to it that Thoreau's work was published.[29] Ralph Waldo Emerson also benefited from Greeley's promotion.[30] Historian Allan Nevins explained:

The Tribune set a new standard in American journalism by its combination of energy in news gathering with good taste, high moral standards, and intellectual appeal. Police reports, scandals, dubious medical advertisements, and flippant personalities were barred from its pages; the editorials were vigorous but usually temperate; the political news was the most exact in the city; book reviews and book-extracts were numerous; and as an inveterate lecturer Greeley gave generous space to lectures. The paper appealed to substantial and thoughtful people.[31]


He got appointed to congress because he supported the turd Zachary Taylor in 1848.

He lasted all of 3 months before his anti-corruption efforts got him hated.


Congressman (1848–1849)[edit]

In November 1848, Congressman David S. Jackson, a Democrat, of New York's Sixth District was unseated for election fraud. Jackson's term was to expire in March 1849, but during the 19th century Congress convened annually in December, making it important to fill the seat. Under the laws then in force, the Whig committee from the Sixth District chose Greeley to run in the special election for the remainder of the term, though they did not select him as their candidate for the seat in the following Congress. The Sixth District, or Sixth Ward as it was commonly called, was mostly Irish-American, and Greeley proclaimed his support for Irish efforts towards independence from Great Britain. He easily won the November election, and took his seat when Congress convened in December 1848.[33] Greeley's selection was procured by the influence of his ally, Thurlow Weed.[34]

As a congressman for three months, Greeley introduced legislation for a homestead act that would allow settlers who improved land to purchase it at low rates—a fourth of what speculators would pay. He was quickly noticed because he launched a series of attacks on legislative privileges, taking note of which congressmen were missing votes, and questioning the office of House Chaplain. This was enough to make him unpopular. But he outraged his colleagues when on December 22, 1848 the Tribune published evidence that many congressmen had been paid excessive sums as travel allowance. In January 1849, Greeley supported a bill that would have corrected the issue, but it was defeated. He was so disliked, he wrote a friend, that he had "divided the House into two parties—one that would like to see me extinguished and the other that wouldn't be satisfied without a hand in doing it."[35]

Other legislation, all failed, introduced by Greeley included attempts to end flogging in the Navy, and to ban alcohol from its ships. He tried to change the name of the United States to "Columbia", abolish slavery in the District of Columbia, and increase tariffs.[34] One lasting effect of the term of Congressman Greeley was his friendship with a fellow Whig, serving his only term in the House, Illinois's Abraham Lincoln. Greeley's term ended after March 3, 1849, and he returned to New York and the Tribune, having, according to Williams, "failed to achieve much except notoriety".[36]

His influence turned the nation against slavery.


Influence (1849–1860)

By the end of the 1840s, Greeley's Tribune was not only solidly established in New York as a daily paper, it was highly influential nationally through its weekly edition, which circulated in rural areas and small towns. Journalist Bayard Taylor deemed its influence in the Midwest second only to that of the Bible. According to Williams, the Tribune could mold public opinion through Greeley's editorials more effectively than could the president. Greeley sharpened those skills over time, laying down what future Secretary of State John Hay, who worked for the Tribune in the 1870s, deemed the "Gospel according to St. Horace".[37]

The Tribune remained a Whig paper, but Greeley took an independent course. In 1848, he had been slow to endorse the Whig presidential nominee, General Zachary Taylor, a Louisianan and hero of the Mexican–American War. Greeley opposed both the war and the expansion of slavery into the new territories seized from Mexico, and feared Taylor would support expansion as president. Greeley considered endorsing former president Martin Van Buren, candidate of the Free Soil Party, but finally endorsed Taylor, who was elected; the editor was rewarded for his loyalty with the congressional term.[38] Greeley vacillated on support for the Compromise of 1850, which gave victories to both sides of the slavery issue, before finally opposing it. In the 1852 presidential campaign, he supported the Whig candidate, General Winfield Scott, but savaged the Whig platform for its support of the Compromise. "We defy it, execrate it, spit upon it."[39] Such party divisions contributed to Scott's defeat by former New Hampshire senator Franklin Pierce.[40]

In 1853, with the party increasingly divided over the slavery issue, Greeley printed an editorial disclaiming the paper's identity as Whig and declaring it to be nonpartisan. He was confident that the paper would not suffer financially, trusting in reader loyalty. Some in the party were not sorry to see him go: the Republic, a Whig organ, mocked Greeley and his beliefs: "If a party is to be built up and maintained on Fourierism, Mesmerism, Maine Liquor laws, Spiritual Rappings, Kossuthism, Socialism, Abolitionism, and forty other isms, we have no disposition to mix with any such companions."[41] When in 1854, Illinois Senator Stephen Douglas introduced his Kansas–Nebraska Bill, allowing residents of each territory to decide whether it would be slave or free, Greeley strongly fought the legislation in his newspaper. After it passed, and the Border War broke out in Kansas Territory, Greeley was part of efforts to send free-state settlers there, and to arm them.[42] In return, proponents of slavery recognized Greeley and the Tribune as adversaries, stopping shipments of the paper to the South and harassing local agents.[43] Nevertheless, by 1858, the Tribune reached 300,000 subscribers through the weekly edition, and it would continue as the foremost American newspaper through the years of the Civil War.[44]

The Kansas–Nebraska Act helped destroy the Whig Party, but a new party with opposition to the spread of slavery at its heart had been under discussion for some years. Beginning in 1853, Greeley participated in the discussions that led to the founding of the Republican Party and may have coined its name.

He actually employed Carl Marx LONG before the Communist Manifesto was written


The Tribune continued to print a wide variety of material. In 1851, its managing editor Charles Dana recruited Karl Marx as a foreign correspondent in London. Marx collaborated with Friedrich Engels on his work for the Tribune, which continued for over a decade, covering 500 articles. Greeley felt compelled to print, "Mr. Marx has very decided opinions of his own, with some of which we are far from agreeing, but those who do not read his letters are neglecting one of the most instructive sources of information on the great questions of current European politics."[50]

Now the Democratic convention.


The Democrats, when they met in Baltimore in July, faced a stark choice—either nominate Greeley, long a thorn in their side, or split the anti-Grant vote and go to certain defeat. They chose the former, and even adopted the Liberal Republican platform, calling for equal rights for African Americans.[107] This was the first time one man had been nominated for president by two political parties.[108]

He interviewed Native Americans and was sympathetic .

I often hear issues of religion invoked when it comes to who was fighting for civil rights and opposing slavery.

I wonder how relevant it is that a socialist & Universalist was such a mover and shaker for civil rights.

Any comments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Chiroptera, posted 08-07-2018 3:26 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Posts: 6916
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003

Message 83 of 84 (837706)
08-07-2018 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by LamarkNewAge
08-07-2018 10:59 AM

Re: A Universalist Unitarian caused the 1872 Democratic platform to call for civil rights
It resulted in the Republican candidate winning most of the south, which was the ONLY election in the 19th century that the GOP WON SOUTHERN ELECTORAL VOTES.

I'm not sure I'd read too much into this. Greeley's campaign included ending Reconstruction, so that should have contributed to unreconstructed white voters supporting him.

What did more to bring the South to the Republican candidate was that the unreconstructed white vote was split among several candidates. Meanwhile, the freedmen (newly freed slaves) were obviously going to vote Republican as were a fair number of "scalawags" (white Southerners who supported the Union and Reconstruction) - and since the South was still under military occupation, their rights to vote were still being protected in most areas.

I think that tying Republican victories in the South to a civil rights platform in the Democratic party, if that indeed happened, might be too simple a connection.

Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

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Posts: 1717
Joined: 12-22-2015

Message 84 of 84 (838085)
08-13-2018 8:08 PM

U.S. Government banned the Sun Dance until the 1970s.
My pure Lakota friend (with long straight black hair with pony tail) was off for a week, but when I was made aware of his presence, this morning when he caught me from behind (with a hand on my shoulder/neck area), I turned around and I easily noticed his sun tan.

I asked him what on earth he was doing. "Were you out laying in the sun for a whole week?"

He started teasing me about how he already has brown skin (holding his arm out and comparing it to my own)

He told me about his very special Sun Dance.


I looked it up and was shocked to see that it was actually banned until the 1970s.

I actually called him up, and thanked him for telling me about the ceremony.

He said it was banned until 1974 (then he corrected himself and said 1978).

I asked him about the secrecy issues.

He said whites are allowed to be brought in to watch, but they can't say anything.

I asked him if that meant total silence.

He said that a person from the outside isn't allowed to go tell stories about how silly people looked running around and making strange noises.

(He is a devout Christian btw)

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