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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 648 of 1748 (838068)
08-13-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by LamarkNewAge
08-13-2018 8:02 AM


Re: Jaywill just invoked the man-made I mean Sacred Canon.
Though this could merit a discussion, I'll just say that the sixty six books enumerated in my RcV (Recovery Version) will be for me the word of God.
Good enough for now. Some people who make a real issue about the canon of scripture are simply hunting for a rationale not to listen to anything.
I use the Recovery Version, Darby's New Translation, 1901 American Standard, and sometimes refer to Bible Hub to spot check over 18 to 20 other English translations to get a sense of how other English Bibles render a passage in question.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-13-2018 8:02 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 657 of 1748 (838100)
08-13-2018 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Bibles For America
I have meet with churches according to localities since 1974. Those outside look at this move of the Lord and need to call it something. Local Church Movement may be a term that some well or ill meaning observer passed on to you.
Christianity pushed Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality but opposed or ignored his books on church life according to one church for one city.
Witness Lee was a co-worker of Nee who was still free to travel and carry Nee's message after Nee had been imprisoned by the Communist in Mainland China.
Critics have attempted to drive a wedge between the two men's ministries. But I can assure you that the imagined or accused descrepencies are artificial.
You seemed to at least in part had some realization of the erroneous criticisms of Witness Lee.
IF ... you have a Recovery Version, it would be excellent for you to list a dozen verses related to the subject here and look up the footnotes in the RcV to see what they say.
The apologetic arm of LSM (Living Stream Ministry Publishers) for the messages of Nee and Lee can be researched at -
Contending for the Faith – Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. -Philippians 1:7
I definitely believe that it is a move of the Holy Spirit to recover the local ground of the practical church life - one city - one church. It has been the god ordained remedy for division and denominationalism that has convinced me that these two brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had something genuine from the throne of the God. It makes some sense that God had to go to a "virgin" land like China where Christianity had not so entrenched itself in traditions, in order for God to open up and end/time channel for recovery of the church life.
I have as always checked out all things with the Bible and been both supplied with grace and life and truth from the ministry from the local churches.
This is a brief word. Next I probably will move closer to what you were concerned with - preparation for His sudden snatching away of some overcoming saints.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 662 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 4:46 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 659 of 1748 (838103)
08-13-2018 10:56 PM


The new covenant ministry is to impart a living Person Christ into people. He is a seed that we must water and tend to. God causes the growth. And rapture is something of a culmination of ripeness, readiness resulting from this GROWTH.
Here Paul says the normal church is God's FARM and God's building:
For we are God's fellow workers, you are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. (1 Cor. 3:9)
The various workers and apostles PLANTED and WATERED this growing life of Christ on God's FARM.
I planted. Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. (v.6)
Concerning Rapture notice that it is a culmination of RIPENESS of the "crop" in God's field. When the crop reaches growth and building up a HARVEST is enacted by God.
And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth.
And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts amd ;engthenes - how, he does not know.
The earth bears fruit by itself:
first a blade,
then an ear,
then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come. (Mark 4:26-29)
So we can see from First Corinthians that the normal church experience should be of planting and watering Christ in men. And GOD causes the growth of the plants.
And from Mark that RIPENESS of the growing plants must one day result in HARVEST - a reaping of the mature crop that God has planted in the earth.
Revelation 14 is very good to show that the taking of the saints is in terms of FIRSTFRUITS which ripen early and HARVEST which ripenes at the end. See Revelation 14:1-5 and Revelation 14:14-16
Between these two reapings are the events of the great tribulation of three and one half years. That is a reaping of FIRSTFRUITS close to the commencement of this great tribulation and a reaping of the HARVEST at its close.
Some of the crop is ready EARLY and as a reward is reaped BEFORE the commencement of the great tribulation. This will be a minority. The majority of the crop of God's people on earth will not be ready and will be RIPENED with the help of the events of the great tribulation. They TOO are raptured as a majority HARVEST at the three and one half year's conclusion.
In each case it is a matter of the GROWTH of the divine life within the believers. We should not be too subjective but care for one another and the gospel. In caring for one another a door will be opened to us to be ready to be raptured at the proper time.
One other passage in this post - Rapture is not a matter of many spiritual giants. Rather it is a reward for normal Christian brotherly love and being true to His word.
The church in Philadelphia does not consist of many spiritual giants. The Lord says that she has "a little strength" . Yet the door is opened to her that no man can shut - into the coming millennial age. And she is promised that she will be kept from the very HOUR of tribulation which is to come upon the whole earth.
Her need for that time has been superseded by the daily faithfulness and mutual brotherly love of the saints - all of which are really little ones, not particularly powerful.
And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens:
I know your works, behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:7,8)
Brotherly love (Philadelphia) calls for oneness. And not denying the name of the Lord Jesus requires that we hold no other name up above His. All things are ours. All servants of God are ours. But we are Christ's alone and He is God's alone. So in the oneness that hastens the Lord's turning of the age just little saints with faithfulness is the key. Christ opens a door to such which no critics can shut.
Please do not take any of this as some automatic assurance on my part because I meet on the local ground (churches according to cities). Grasp instead the principles. Here we see the lessons have been learned in DAILY walk which make the lessons of the great tribulation unncecessary. As a reward those who overcome the surrunding lukewarmness are taken out of the earth before it begins.
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, top try them who dwell on the earth." (v.10)
The CONDITIONAL promise should not be overlooked. And difficulties arrive when it is ASSUMED that the entire church on earth will be raptured pre-tribulation. What does it SAY though? The promise to be kept out of the hour of worldwide trial is not based upon merely being a believer but upon overcoming surrounding degradation, which results in other names being exalted and longsuffering to be neglected.
BECAUSE ... you have kept the word of My endurance,
I ALSO will keep you out of the hour of trial ... "
IF you have a Recovery Version you should carefully read the footnotes of brother Witness Lee on this passage. They certainly have persuaded me upon careful examination.
Now I will only say a brief word about Revelation 7. This vision of a unnumerable multitude which came out of the great tribulation is an inserted vision to show GENERALLY - that God will preserve ALL those who have trusted in His salvation from the foundation of the world.
There "great tribulation" means the entire tribulation of all of world history since the creation of man on the earth.
These are those who come out of the overall great tribulation of all human history. The vision is an inserted vision simply to assure John that in spite of the severe judgments to come eventually ALL of God's saints from the foundation of the world will come through history to arrive in God's temple, God's bulding and rest in a symbolic Feast of Tabernacles with palm branches.
We are assured that ALL saints will be taken. This does not mean that all saints will be taken at the SAME time.
For length's sake, I stop here.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:06 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 664 of 1748 (838118)
08-14-2018 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 662 by Faith
08-14-2018 4:46 AM


Re: Bibles For America
Yes, Probably a little confusing. Forgive me for this effect. I love you both in the Lord. Being a tad touchy about the subject of the local churches because of years of apologetics has also caused me to be a little reactionary.
I'm sorry if I confused my replies.
This should be beneficial to all of us. The example of Enoch in Genesis is insightful. Enoch named his son Methusaleh. The meaning of the name is something like - "When he dies it will come." The "it" that will come is the judgment of Noah's flood.
After Enoch had revelation that divine judgment upon the world was coming, he walked with God. The testimony of Enoch is that God would be pleased with his godly walk and actually REMOVE him from the place of judgment (Gen. 5:22-24) . God did this for a testimony as well as a blessing to Enoch.
This should be a lesson to us. We see what is coming. We know what is coming. And even we have CHILDREN who are growing up into a world in which we know God will judge. What ELSE can we do but learn then, the walk with God?
I believe that the record longevity of the life of Methusaleh is a testament to God's willingness that ALL be saved. Since "When he dies it will come" God's mercy caused Methuselah to live a record length among all mankind - 969 years (Gen. 5:27)
I have kids also. And I see what is coming also. It gives me an incentive to want to walk with Jesus Christ. There will someday be a CORPORATE Enoch who will suddenly not be found, because they are suddenly taken. I would like to be among those ripening and being taken early before the world wide hour of trial.
But the great tribulation, on the other hand, is a mercy of God to TURN the distracted Christians to Christ from the world completely. You don't think Christians during that time, if left on the earth, will be distracted by worldly amusements or sinful living any longer do you?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 4:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 11:29 AM jaywill has not replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 665 of 1748 (838119)
08-14-2018 10:25 AM


So the reward of EARLY rapture will take place to a remnant of those who are overcoming. And the majority of the church will be left to ripen during the "heat" of the great tribulation. All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
Now to WALK with Jesus Christ is really more of the same as we initially received Him - in FAITH - taking Him as all that we need. So Paul says - AS we received Christ the Lord we should continue to WALK in Him.
"As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:6)
We received Him as little children - in faith.
We believed that ALL that we needed was in HIM.
We should continue to WALK in Him in the same way. We trust that what we need, He IS.
For He is dwelling in the spirit of the born again believer. The Lord Jesus Christ IS with our spirit as Christians (2 Timothy 4:22) . He is living inside of the Christian. He is one spirit with the lover of Jesus - (1 Cor. 6:17)
And we should learn to walk enjoying Him and trusting that what we need is found in Him.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 666 of 1748 (838121)
08-14-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
08-14-2018 10:06 AM


quote:
You say the great multitude of Revelation 7 is those who came out of great tribulation (were martyred?) over all time, and I'll accept that for now, but is there a description of a Great Tribulation following the Rapture somewhere?
No, the huge multitude in Revelation 7 does not ONLY include those physically martyred.
This vision should mean ALL believers in God from the foundation of the world who have passed through the trouble of the entire FALLEN WORLD history since Satan's corruption of the earth.
My position then:
1.) God inserts a vision to assure that ALL believers who trusted in God will eventually be saved.
2.) Of course this includes those physically martyred and those not so.
3.) Though "great tribulation" as a phrase appears more than once in
the New Testament, I would teach that in Revelation 7:14 it refers
to the entire world history as a "great tribulation".
"These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (v.14b)
Now the specially, physically martyred saints are seen as the Manchild being raptured in Revelation 12. And the physically martyred saints in past ages is also seen in Revelation 6:9-11 -
Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
From Adam, Eve, and Abel through the last raptured saint before the millennial kingdom, all believers trusting in God enter into the kingdom through many tribulations.
Tribulation works endurance. And endurance works hope. And hope does not put to shame.
" ... but we also boast in our tribulation, knowing that tribulation produces endurance, And endurance, approvedness; and approvedness, hope;
And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." (Rom. 5:3b-5)
I stop here for length's sake.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by Faith, posted 08-15-2018 11:01 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 667 of 1748 (838122)
08-14-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 649 by Phat
08-13-2018 3:47 PM


Re: Bibles For America
Excuse me for confusing some remarks to you - Phat, with some remarks to Faith.
Glad to see you obtained a RcV. There are many good English versions IMO.
That we come to the word prayerfully and exercising our spirit over the words is excellent. We need a time to study and we need a time to be nourished by the words of faith.
Lee helped us to learn to Prayread the words of the Bible. This has been practiced for centuries by many believers. lately some have emphasized it as good in the nourishment of the food in the Scripture.
Witness Lee empahsized the need to take the word of God in by PRAYER - mixing our reading with our praying and our praying with our reading.
In addition to this, anyone should be able to see that very careful analysis and exposition of the Bible ALSO has taken place in this ministry. The bird needs TWO wings to fly. The bird does not fly well with on ONE wing.
So BOTH careful examination with tools of interpretation AND nourishing and refreshing our spirits by prayreading the word of God are our practice in the local churches.
Small groups of believers can have hours of enjoyment in worship in their homes by corporately prayreading the words of the Bible. And then they may discuss and interpret after having been "nourished up in the words of the faith" (First Timothy 4:6).
Dust that Rcv NT off and go back to some of the footnotes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Phat, posted 08-13-2018 3:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 680 of 1748 (838256)
08-17-2018 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by Faith
08-15-2018 11:14 AM


Re: First Love
Lamentations 3:22-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;[a]
his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
Faith, the mercies of the Lord are fresh EVERY MORNING. Don't you know how to apply the cleansing blood of Christ to all the previous night and previous day?
Each new day you should begin by believing that His cleansing blood has washed away all your errors, failures, sins, mistakes, shortcomings, etc. I was taught how to apply the blood of Jesus to have short accounts.
Yesterday is under the blood of Jesus.
Tomorrow belongs to God.
You have TODAY. You have each day.
Use Christ's redemption and His blood to shut the mouth of the accuser.
And pray over His word to nourish your spirit at the beginning of each day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Faith, posted 08-15-2018 11:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 9:06 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 704 of 1748 (838319)
08-19-2018 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 681 by Faith
08-17-2018 9:06 AM


Re: First Love
Faith,
quote:
Thanks. No, I have lousy discipline.
Starting the day with the Lord Jesus is about the same as having breakfast each morning.
I don't consider it great discipline to eat breakfast every day. Does it require strong discipline to have a bowl of cereal first thing in the morning ?
Similarly, even FIVE minutes to start reading aloud some verses is about as disciplined as having toast each morning. And if you cannot do so in the morning, it is effective to do so anyway, when you can.
We don't have to claim our weaknesses. We can believe that He has all that we need. I mean turn our eyes OFF of ourselves and look away to Jesus Christ with praises.
Breathing also does not take a lot of discipline. Just to breath the name of Jesus is effective to touch the Spirit of Jesus.
The song writer said "Just to breath the name of Jesus is to drink of life indeed."
As soon as you awaken in the morning, before the Devil puts all kinds of proposals into your head, just breath the name of Jesus .... "Lord Jesus, O LOrd Jesus. Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus I love you."
We can touch Him first thing in our day. I don't think to start it requires great discipline. But it is like a salmon fish swimming upstream though. For the current of this age is always pulling us AWAY from God.
This is a MINI rapture. This is mini snatching away of your being from the world UNTO the Lord Jesus. When you call upon His name or breath in prayer some passage of the Bible you experience a minute rapture from the world. The final Rapture is going to be in principle the same.
So I would you to have many many tiny little raptures from this world to Christ by calling on His name and speaking forth His word. Don't claim and stand upon your failures and weaknesses. Neither even believe in them.
Believe rather in the Lord Jesus calling out to Him, reaching out to Him utterning His name and speaking His word.
Practice rapture.
Practice your own little mini snatching AWAY from the world UNTO the Lord Jesus.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 9:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 705 of 1748 (838320)
08-19-2018 8:16 AM


Faith,
quote:
Maybe partly because I became a believer on my own by reading books and got in the habit of depending on external inspiration rather than personal discipline. Thanks though, that is good advice.
It doesn't matter HOW you came to Jesus. The important thing is the you CAME to Jesus. And you can continue to TURN YOUR HEART to the Lord Jesus. Just to call "O Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus YOU love Me. O LOrd thankyou for YOUR love" will cause your soul to be snatched away from a little while in a MICRO RAPTURE.
The final Rapture is the same in principle. Do you understand this? The Rapture is just a big snatching away preceded by many many small snatching aways.
So practice letting the Lord Jesus SNATCH your attention away from this fallen world to Him. That's all. We practice. And we practice again. Eventually we just BREATH in prayer His presence and unconsciously walk in Him.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 706 of 1748 (838321)
08-19-2018 8:17 AM


Faith,
quote:
I got so enthused about the Rapture in the last few weeks the idea of missing it is too depressing to contemplate. What if it happens on this coming Rosh Hashana, just a few weeks away? All the signs are in place. Though it could be next year or the next I suppose. Well, all I can do is pull myself together and spend every day seeking Him harder than ever.
What time does your day START ? If your day STARTS at 6:30 am in the morning let your first transactions of the day be with God. If you start SMALL that is OKAY. Even to start with five to ten minutes is good. But the principle I encourage is:
START the day with the Lord Jesus.
All of the past is under His cleansing blood of redemption. EACH DAY is a new start. Please think of this as as simple as starting the day with BREAKFAST. Not huge amounts of discipline are regarded to enjoy a bowl of cereal in the morning.
Does is require great discipline to have a cup of COFFEE in the morning ? Don't believe that it takes great discipline to START the day with the Lord Jesus = and EACH day. Start small.
but get into the ENJOYMENT of Jesus Christ in His living WORD with your spirit.
This will be practice of a mini - micro rapture every day.
You know Rapture just means a kind of ecstatic state. Just think of it as practicing to be HAPPY with the Lord Jesus, and IN the Lord Jesus calling on His name and speaking forth the living word of God - first thing you do before the world requires your resources and strength.
The TOP of the day you give a few moments to start to the Lord Jesus Christ.
This will be a habit of having a mini rapture which will positively effect the whole rest of the day.
quote:
I know there are reasons to believe it won't be the entire Church that is raptured, but on the other hand when Paul tells the Thessalonians that "we" will meet Him in the air he's talking to ordinary Christian believers.
I would like to get into some of the prophesies. I see a lot of misconceptions being written about. But right now my priority is to help a few people to realize that every time we TURN ...TURN ... TURN our hearts to the living Jesus was are snatched away from the world UNTO God.
Physical Rapture will be placing our body where our heart is always inclined to be.
Remember Lot's wife. Physically she was removed from Sodom. But it did her little good because her HEART was back there in Sodom. She physically was removed but in heart she was still there. She turned into a pillar of salt. She became a monument of shame.
Jesus told us "Remember Lot's wife." The INWARD heart must leave the world first. Then the Lord will one day take the BODY of you where your HEART always longs to be --- with Him. Remember LOt's wife. Do not trust in merely PHYSICAL removal.
Learn to remove your heart from this world UNTO the Lord Jesus. And practice to do so calling on His name and speaking in prayerful spirit His rich word.
Amen.
Perhaps latter we can talk about some of the surrounding prophecies connected to this. I would not be being faithful though if I only talked about these mechanics and neglected the matter of the snatching away to Jesus Christ of our HEARTS.
"Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus, HOW You love us. Thankyou Lord Jesus for your precious blood of redemption. O Lord Jesus. We too love you and allow you to snatch us away right now from our self and the world UNTO God. Amen."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 9:52 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 718 of 1748 (838354)
08-19-2018 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 707 by Faith
08-19-2018 9:52 AM


quote:
I appreciate what you are saying and can practice those things. It isn't foreign to me, I've just needed the encouragement. You make it sound easy in a sense. In any case I can certainly be practicing it while you address the prophecies and I would like you do that.
Okay, then for some objective relief, let's consider one passage you mentioned.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means precede those who have fallen asleep; (v.15)
Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (v.16)
Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the louds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord." (v.17) (First Thessalonians 4:15-17)
1.) It is true that Paul says "WE" here. But his speaking is general. We who are of the Body of Christ. All believers in Christ are a part of this general great "WE".
2.) This rapture is not the secretive pre-tribulation rapture. This is the public, spectacular, rapture of the majority of the believers at the end of the great tribulation. The Lord's coming as a thief in Matthew 24:36-42 is a sudden, secretive, rather concealed rapture BEFORE the commencement of the great tribulation. This rapture of First Thessalonians 4:15-17 is at the "last trumpet" which should be the seventh trumpet at the end rather than the beginning of the great tribulation. This is the rapture described in Revelation 14:14-16 described as the HARVEST meaning the MAJORITY of the crop. This is tumultuous, loud, public, spectacular rather than sudden, secretive, surprising, and designed to rescue saints from the hour of the trial before the start of the great tribulation.
3.) Since this is the rapture of the majority rather than than the remnant, by this time the remnant of minority have already been raptured.
This is probably the meaning of the words -
... we who are living, who are left remaining
If Paul merely meant we who are living it would have been adequate for him to write "we who are living"/ He adds something ... " ..., who are left remaining". This may mean that SOME who were LIVING were previously raptured. And those who were left behind are those who are both living AND LEFT REMAINING.
For example, in Revelation 14 the FIRSTFRUITS are seen having been raptured and standing before Christ in the third heavens in verses 1 through 5. Then the events of the great tribulation are summarized in verses 6 through 13. Beginning with verse 14 we see the public reaping of the majrity HARVEST. FIRSTFRUITS taken before the great tribulation is followed BY the great tribulation. Then those who are ALIVE and LEFT REMAINING as a HARVEST are reaped at the conclusion of that time in verses `4 through 16.
Thus EARLY ripened crop is taken. And LATTER ripening HARVEST are those who include the ALIVE and LEFT REMAINING.
The early rapture is pre-tribulation. It will include a minority of those asleep who died ready and those who are alive at that time who are watching and ready.
The latter harvest rapture of the majority is at the end of the great tribulation. It consists of those asleep who died not ready and those who are alive and left remaining whose time is then to be taken up.
The use of the word WE is just Paul speaking generally. Both FIRSTFRUITS and HARVEST comprise an all-encompassing WE in that sense.
The PLACE to which the two raptures take place are also not the same. The former pre-tribulation rapture is to the throne in the third heavens (See Revelation 12:5). But the rapture of the majority Harvest is to the AIR (First Thess. 4:17 which means that by that time He has made His journey FROM the third heavens down to the close proximity to the earth's surface in the air.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 707 by Faith, posted 08-19-2018 9:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 2:20 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 728 of 1748 (838372)
08-20-2018 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 719 by Faith
08-20-2018 2:20 AM


quote:
Just a preliminary question: Is Matthew 24:36-42 the only place where the secret rapture is described?
I think I wrote some experiential and subjective things and some outward and objective things. I try to keep balance. In replying to this question I will attempt a balanced answer.
First, I would think the Lord's words of Luke 17:34-37 are about the same concept.
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed, the one is taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:34-36)
Even then in our sleeping we must learn to have our mind set on the spirit where the Holy Spirit mingles with us is. In our daily mundane things of duty we must learn to be before the Lord Jesus in a watchful way.
Revelation 3:10 is also a conditional promise to be caught away. Any conditional promise implies that some will fulfill the condition and some will not.
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." (v.10)
This too should be a reference to a pre-tribulation catching away as a reward for readiness, watching, keeping endurance by grace. Since it is to be kept from the very HOUR of the trial it must mean taken OUT of the world. The lesson of enduring trial through His grace has ALREADY been learned. When the world passes through those learning to live moment by moment in Christ are rewarded for their EARLY graduation from these lessons.
Let me now turn to the word "secretive" per se. Revelation 3:3 is a warning that believers will not know the moment He comes for some worthy to snatch away in rapture.
Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (Rev. 3:3)
This is a warning of an unannounced and rather secretive moment of Christ's arrival. Lack of knowing the time, however, may be supplemented by WATCHING and LIVING in a vigilant state. We live as if He could be here to take us at ANY time.
I would hasten to add that don't get the impression that Jesus EVER encourages non-watchfulness. It would be erroneous to assume that by a secretive pre-tribulation rapture He encourages sloppy and automatic rapture at any other time.
The best example of this caveat might be the warning to watch in Revelation 16:15. The surrounding events of this warning indicate the conclusion of the great world wide trial rather than the period just before. And here too Jesus speaks of His arriving as a thief - unannounced and stealthful.
(Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments that he may not walk naked and they see his shame). (Rev. 16:15)
The context is the final battle of Armageddon which is of course a the conclusion of the great tribulation. The principle of worthiness to not be caught ashamed or off guard is not negated simply because SOME miss the early rapture.
Think again of a crop. There are those plants that ripen early as Firstfruits - a minority. Then there is a majority of those ripening latter as a Harvest. And there is even the Gleanings of those plants which ripen last.
The speakings of Christ's coming to take away ALL of the crop of His people on earth may well indicate that not all are taken at the same moment, yet all are taken - Firstfruits, Harvest, and Gleanings.
The development of the internal life within should never be taken for granted.
The growth of His divine life within influencing His action of reaping should never be taken for granted.
Early Rapture is the response of OBEDIENCE not the escape of cowardice.
We are exhorted to pray and request that we stand before Him having escaped trial.
But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)
To be watchful and petitioning God that we escape these things of world-wide calamity and stand before the Son of Man, is the response of OBEDIENCE to His command. And if it means to stand before the Son of Man in Heaven as a result of rapture pre-tribulation style, that would be the response of OBEDIENCE to Christ's command not the ducking of responsibility.
The exhortation is to beseech that the believer PREVAIL to ESCAPE first rather than prevail through the things. The latter is good. The former is even better.
But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 2:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 7:57 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 732 by Faith, posted 08-20-2018 10:59 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 731 of 1748 (838375)
08-20-2018 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by PaulK
08-20-2018 7:57 AM


Hi Paulk. I have to admit up front that I have not read carefully ALL of your posts here. I think it would be more constructive if I paid closer attention to some of your other posts.
This will take some time for me to at least understand how you think about Matthew 24.
quote:
Luke 17 has so much text in common with Matthew 24 it is apparent that it is the same material.
The synoptic gospels share much material. You do recognize though that there could be differences in EMPHASIS as each evangelist writes his own presentation of Christ's words.
quote:
And Luke 17:30 tells us that this, too, is about the Second Coming, not a Secret Rapture.
It says -
It will be in the same way on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17:30)
If a minority of saints are heedful to the exhortation to watch, certainly the Son of Man will be revealed to them when raptured.
If some heed the exhortation of Luke 21:36 certainly to them the Son of Man before whom they stand is revealed in heaven to which they are raptured.
But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)
That certainly would be the Son of Man revealed to them. And to a great extent it would be a revelation of the Son of Man to those Christians on earth who noticed that SOME of their brethren, like Enoch, are not found but have been taken. To some extent that would be the Son of Man being revealed to them as well.
In Revelation 14:1-5 we see that before the major events of the great tribulation, SOME early ripened "Firstfruits" are standing in heaven before the Lamb in some heavenly Mt. Zion. We know it is in heaven because the sound of their singing is "out of heaven" (v.2)
Certainly they are raptured and the Lamb, Who is also "the Son of Man" would be mightily revealed to THEM. This revealing of the Son of Man occurs BEFORE the Son of Man is seen reaping His Harvest at the end of the chapter in verses 14 - 16
And I saw and behold, there was a white cloud and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. (v.14)
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. (v.16)
The Son of Man is revealed to the FIRSTFRUITS prior to the Son of Man being revealed to the HARVEST. So the phrase "on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed" (Luke 17:30) cannot be insisted to mean only ONE rapture.
How could you insist that the Son of Man is NOT revealed to those standing upon Mt. Zion in heaven before the Lamb and the four living creatures? These people were purchased FROM the earth as early FIRSTFRUITS (14:3) and that they must WAIT until He is revealed at the reaping of the HARVEST some time latter at the END of the great tribulation?
quote:
Revelation 3:10 does not mention how any will be preserved
I agree. But neither does it insist that all those taken are physical virgins either.
So the FIRSTFRUITS taken early because of EARLY ripening in life should include others who are equally watchful for Christ's sudden secretive rapture.
I don't think that every mention of a pre-tribulation rapture MUST specify the number of people taken. The absence of the mentioning of 144,000 in Revelation 3:10 does not force us to dismiss that before the hour of trial SOME (whom Christ deems worthy of the reward) are raptured before the last three and one half years of the great tribulation.
quote:
- and it is in a message to the Church in Philadelphia. Verse 3:11 says that Jesus is coming quickly - so it clearly reads as referring to the current membership of that church.
The letters were practical letters to existing churches on earth at that time. Yet I firmly believe that the letters were also a PROPHECY of the development of the church on earth. And what one hears said to any ONE church is to be heeded by those who have an ear in EVERY church.
That the promise to keep some vigilant and enduring ones from the hour of world wide trial is spoken specifically to the church in Philadelphia is not strong enough rationale for me to assume I who do not live in Philadelphia then or now, should not heed to exhortation. It is relevant to you and I today.
He who has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (v.13)
This sevenfold repeated exhortation to HEAR what the Spirit says carries no hint that we need NOT heed what is said to ANY individual church there.
quote:
Revelation 3:3 only repeats the warning to watch for the signs.
The watching of Revelation 3:3 I feel is the watching against spiritual deadness and the incomplete things of her partial revival.
The previous verse -
Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were abut to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God. (v.2)
These are things which concern having a reputation be being living but actually being more spiritually dormant and deadened. The watching is for this deadness to be held in check and for the church to become LIVING. And that not only in reputation but in vitality and reality.
This watching is appropriate to Christians on earth in EVERY stage of history. And even towards the end of the great tribulation it would still be relevant.
quote:
Luke 21:36 does not say anything about how the disaster may be escaped. However it might well refer to fleeing from - or staying away from - Jerusalem as advised in verse 21.
So, still no secret rapture.
I will have to suspend our discussion here and resume latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 7:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 12:45 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 736 of 1748 (838388)
08-20-2018 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by PaulK
08-20-2018 12:45 PM


Concerning Matthew 24:
quote:
That would be a very odd reading even if Matthew 24 didn’t make it clear that the Second Coming was meant.
I am not sure I get your point.
One part of the chapter's leading question concerns the parousia or (presence) of the Lord Jesus. This word is usually translated coming.
And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your [coming] and of the consummation of the age?
So His elaboration would not be thought odd at all if it contained matters pertaining to His [coming] or parousia and of the consummation of the age. They ASKED Him about these things.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by PaulK, posted 08-20-2018 12:45 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by PaulK, posted 08-21-2018 12:10 AM jaywill has replied

  
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