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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 344 of 441 (837890)
08-10-2018 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Tangle
08-10-2018 11:53 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Can you address the points I raised?
Nobody can do so to your satisfaction. The issue here is that you are conflating things that are just your opinion with fact, and are insisting that we accept those things. That won't work. If you want some movement, you are going to have to use persuasion, rather than your current tact of trying to tell us that your conclusions are inescapable. Nobody here accepts your principle that there is a scale of harm that begins at conception and increases thereafter. We accept that you sincerely believe that, but I and others do not adopt your standard. I've spent some time explaining why I don't, as has Percy. At this point, Percy at least seems patient enough to respond to what is the same assertions from you over and over.
Until you do something about that impasse, you should not have any expectation that your comments are going to move the discussion forward. We disagree, and you know exactly why that is.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 11:53 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 2:17 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 347 of 441 (837898)
08-10-2018 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by Tangle
08-10-2018 2:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
e forget conception, forget continuums of harm, just answer me this
I don't really intend to or need to. I personally am of the opinion, that there is, in fact, some point before birth during which we are talking about a human life. For me, though that does not end the inquiry about the balance of harms, and folks can disagree about when an abortion is or is not appropriate. I'm not a doctor, so when I am not involved, I believe that the situation is always one to be decide by a doctor and the patient at all times prior to birth.
So I think I reach the same conclusion other folks reach without adopting their reasoning.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 2:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 6:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 355 of 441 (837976)
08-11-2018 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Tangle
08-10-2018 6:29 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It's a moral question that does not [ABE] have a final, unambiguous, objectively testable answer and people will have different answers. Nevertheless, we must decide.
No, Tangle. 'We' don't have to decide. The people involved have to decide for themselves with some possible input or advice from others. What I expressed about the life of the unborn is my opinion and not a fact even if you agree with me.
You are just as authoritarian as any fundamentalist. It does not matter if your opinions are not religious. Your opinions are not science-based either, so where does the moral authority for your own positions come from?
I think we two are in violent agreement, but I still have no clue about Jar and Percy
We share the same opinion about one aspect of the discussion, but we don't come to the same conclusion. As I said, my conclusion about what "We" should do lines up with Percy and Jar and not you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 6:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 5:12 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:51 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 367 of 441 (838004)
08-11-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Tangle
08-11-2018 5:12 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Not interfering is also a decision.
Sigh. You are equivocating here. It is a decision, but it is not the decision about whether or not an abortion happens. I do not have to make that decision.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 5:12 PM Tangle has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 368 of 441 (838006)
08-11-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
08-11-2018 7:51 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It used to be that there was enough agreement that killing human life is morally wrong that such a question couldn't even come up
As this thread has pointed out repeatedly, that position is not the one evangelicals themselves held at some time in the past. I wonder at what time you are referring to when abortion was unthinkable so that questions about it did not come up. Secondly, abortion predates all of that. Thirdly, you've again skipped past the question of when life begins as if you have all of the answers.
Your comments add nothing to the discussion.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 08-11-2018 7:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 3:48 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 372 of 441 (838015)
08-12-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
08-12-2018 3:48 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Also it makes it clear that my thoughts are in line with science's recognition that there is a continuous process of growth and development from conception on, so that distinguishing any stage where it is not a human being is really impossible.
Wrong. The fact that there is a continuum does not make distinguishing some stages impossible. There are some stages where the fact that we are not dealing with a human being is completely clear, just as in a spectrum of visible light, some portions are clearly not red, while other portions are clearly not blue.
It is completely clear that conception is not the point, nor is any point before the fertilized egg becomes attached.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 3:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 2:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 373 of 441 (838016)
08-12-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Percy
08-12-2018 9:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It isn't a term with any objective definition.
That is not correct. You have just given an objective definition. While it is true that it is dependent on the available facilities, that dependence is not subjective. It is just variable to some extent. But it does not depend of feelings, emotion, or anything non measurable or factual. You used the word ambiguity. Yes there is some of that, but the ambiguity is resolvable by talking about the specific facilities and skills that are actually available to the patient.
Now, there may still be problems with using viability in that the definition could well extend to a point before there is any human consciousness. But we don't use viability as an absolute cutoff. Under current jurisprudence, viability is only the point were a state interest is recognized as having a higher importance. Viability may also have an emotional component for the parents that weighs into their decision. In the end, the decisions are going to be made by humans and of course will involve subjectivity. But the definition of viability, based on the circumstances that the parents, mother, and unborn face, is probably one of the least subjective of all the factors.
I do find agree with Tangle and Faith on one point. I don't understand the reluctance to acknowledge that an unborn child, a few seconds before birth, is a human life. And in fact, it is only in an extreme situation where anyone would consider an abortion in that situation. Almost certainly those situations would involve the mother's life.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 9:14 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 378 of 441 (838043)
08-12-2018 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Percy
08-12-2018 8:18 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Maybe you're right that "variable" is a better adjective, but I think everyone knew what I meant.
I am not going to apologize for insisting on another term. I think the distinction between variable and subjective is important.
About an abortion just a few seconds before birth, I've commented a couple times that that doesn't seem possible to me.
Nor to me either. But a more reasonable circumstance might be a medical procedure other than an abortion that endangers the unborn's life in order to give the mother a better chance at life.
The question instead is whether an unborn child at that point is a human life and not whether you would perform an abortion. In lots of cases, the choice of a child's actual birthday is not determined completely by nature. For example, my daughter's birthday began with labor being induced the morning of her "due date". I doubt she would have arrived that day without an artificial aid.
Tangle also asked the question a different way, whether a woman can kill her fetus shortly before birth ("If a woman stuck a knitting needle through her cervix and skewered her baby moments before it was born..."). This gets back to the question of whether the fetus has personhood. I don't know
Well under US law an unborn baby is not a person. That means that she would have to be charged with something other than homicide. If you mean something else by personhood, you'll need to tell me what you mean.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:18 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 8:15 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 379 of 441 (838044)
08-12-2018 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
08-12-2018 2:12 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
It is not at all "completely clear," as evidenced by the fact that science as described in the article disagrees with you.
Quote me some science from the article that says that a fertilized egg is a human life prior to attachment in the uterus.
ABE:
I think I set the standard too high. Instead, quote me some science from that article that casts doubt on the idea a fertilized egg is not a human being prior to attachment in the uterus. Here is a hint: quickening is not an indication of being a human life.
Edited by NoNukes, : Loosen up my requirements.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 08-12-2018 2:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 3:42 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 382 of 441 (838061)
08-13-2018 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by Faith
08-13-2018 3:42 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I quoted all that there is in the article on the subject which says only that conception inaugurates the continuous process toward full humanness
Of course that is correct. We know that conception is the first step that occurs on the way to a baby being born. But that does not contradict my statement that a fertilized egg, which is not attached to the uterus is not a human life. At all. Your claim is that there was some science in the article that suggests that we cannot know that. You were wrong.
mplantation is part of the normal process "if uninterrupted" so that too is not a stage that differentiates between human and nonhuman.
No, Faith. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise. Just because we have a start to a process does not mean that we cannot distinguish portions of the process from the conclusion.
In the article "quickening" is identified as the point beyond which the medical profession, before we had knowledge of what happens at conception,
That statement is idiotic. As described in the article, doctors used the concept of quickening because it was adopted by nonscientists who had the power to punish them criminally. It occurred pretty far down the line. Nothing has been discovered about conception that raises it to the level that a fertilized egg is a human life. And certainly, the article does not describe anything like that. You are just making stuff up.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 3:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 384 of 441 (838092)
08-13-2018 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
08-13-2018 8:45 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Biologically/genetically we have a human being from conception to birth. And the article says very simply that when this was recognized by the medical profession they had to give up the previous definition of human life beginning at quickening. Period.
No, Faith. That is not what the articles says. There is nothing in the article that defines human life as occurring at conception, no matter how much you want to pretend that it does. There is certainly no science in the article that supports that either.
hairsplitting sophistry
Since we are talking about what the science says, I am necessarily being precise. I've explained why the parts you have quoted don't meet your requirement. If you have something else, I'd be happy to discuss that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 386 of 441 (838098)
08-13-2018 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
08-13-2018 8:56 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Let's examine your quote in a couple of chunks.
quote:
Science had discovered that conception inaugurated a more or less continuous process of development, which would produce a new human being if uninterrupted.
All that is certain about this statement is that the process produces a human being. This does not say that we have a human being at the start of the process. And in fact, the statement is an inescapable denial that such a thing is true. It does not say that the process is the development of a human being, it says that the process produces a human being at some point along the way.
Moreover, quickening was found to be neither more nor less crucial in the process of gestation than any other step. Many physicians concluded that if society considered it unjustifiable to terminate pregnancy after the fetus had quickened, and if quickening was a relatively unimportant step in the gestation process, then it was just as wrong to terminate a pregnancy before quickening as after quickening.
The quoted statement's conclusion is not about science but about physicians following what society dictated and not about science, exactly as I said before. Further, quickening occurs well after attachment to the uterus, so it is not relevant to my own position.
...you are being duplicitous.
Now if you actually have some rebuttal other than gratuitous namecalling, I'd appreciate hearing that argument. But we both know that you are incapable of any kind of honest debate or discussion, so here is one more chance lie about me.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 441 (838134)
08-14-2018 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Percy
08-14-2018 8:15 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
I think your complaint's a red herring distracting from the real issue, that the point of viability cannot be objectively established.
Not a red herring. For a large number of folks in the US, we can say a lot about the available technology and about what would constitute viability of the unborn. In fact, our jurisprudence uses rough rules of thumb regarding viability, with the envelope being pushed in the states as technology improves.
Yes, there is some "variability", but we have some basic and objective ways to talk about viability. You are simply incorrect about that.
I've said many times that I don't *know
Yes, you have said that. I maintain that there is not much doubt about the issue for which your own answer is "I don't know."
Is US law based upon fact or upon feelings and opinions?
Of course, there is some opinion involved. Hopefully, it is informed opinion.One thing we can say with regard to the legal definition is that it does give us an answer. Your own answer uses the term personhood. I asked you if you meant something other than the legal definition, and instead of either answering or helping me understand what you meant, you posted this question. How does that help?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 8:15 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 7:37 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 394 of 441 (838135)
08-14-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Faith
08-14-2018 10:45 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
This is what I mean by sophistry. There is no way the process to becoming a human being could be inaugurated except by something that had all the stuff for making a human being already present.
There are no brains or lungs or heart in a fertilized egg prior to attachment to the uterus. Your comment is ridiculous. All of the stuff for making them does not cut it, just as all of the stuff for making cookies does not make them cookies before when they are still raw ingredients. What you are doing is rewording the idea that the potential is there, and ignoring the fact that the potential for becoming a human life does not make a human life.
You have the potential for making great arguments. But this one is not of them.
If you want to make the argument that the potential for being human is sufficient reason not to abort, then at least such arguments have some consistency. This one does not.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 2:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 399 of 441 (838148)
08-14-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Faith
08-14-2018 2:11 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
There are no brains or heart or lungs right after attachment either, it is you who are making no sense.
I did not claim that the zygote became human life after attachment. My claim is that I can identify a time when the zygote is not a human life. I could identify some further stages as well, but I don't need to do so for this argument.
So it is not that I am making no sense. It is that once again I have broken my promise not to argue with a complete moron. I'm back on the wagon.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 2:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 2:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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