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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 370 of 441 (838008)
08-12-2018 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Percy
08-11-2018 6:17 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Can we bring this discussion back from the brink?
Sure.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 08-11-2018 6:17 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 375 of 441 (838023)
08-12-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Percy
08-12-2018 9:14 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
I think that pretty well sums up my position,
And also mine.
But it's still obvious that the fertised egg marks the start of process in the development of a human being and that the foetus a moment before birth *is* a full formed human. I really don't understand the objection to that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 9:14 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 381 of 441 (838051)
08-13-2018 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Percy
08-12-2018 8:45 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Well, it sounds innocuous enough, and normally I would have no objection
Ok
but not given where we began combined with the discussion's history where you called fertilization definitive and the beginning of a continuum...
Biologically speaking, this can't be denied
...where termination brings increasing harm that everyone knows must be true. If what you just said implies this then naturally I do not agree.
Our point of difference is in harm or no harm in abortion and whether there is a continuum of increasing harm. As I understand you, you can not accept any harm towards an foetus at any point in the developmental process. You say that harm can only involve a born baby. You say that this is because you don't know whether a foetus is alive or not.
I tried various ways to persuade you that harm may be involved here, from pointing out that harm can involve the non-living - like smashing a window - or the non-human, like kicking a dog.
In order to try to get to the bottom of the harm and alive issue I asked you the theoretical question of whether it would be morally ok for a mother to kill the unborn baby just before birth.
The point of this question being that the foetus just before birth is a fully formed baby capable of life outside the woman. I don't think you've ever properly addressed this. I'm not suggesting that this is a real life or practical question requiring practical answers, it's purely a theoretical question intended to see where these 'alive' and 'harm' ideas begin and end.
I note that you have changed your 'alive' requirement to a 'person' requirement. I don't feel that this changes anything except in a technical, legal sense. You point to Roe
quote:
the unborn have never been recognized ... as persons in the whole sense", and thus, the fetuses are not legally entitled to the protection afforded by the right to life specifically enumerated in the Fourteenth Amendment. So, rather than asserting that human life begins at any specific point, the court simply declared that the State has a "compelling interest" in protecting "potential life" at the point of viability.
I say that the phrase 'compelling interest in protecting potential life at the point of viability', accepts that there is a harm involved in killing a foetus at some point before birth and we therefore have a moral duty to protect the foetus from this harm. I note too that this is 'simply declared' not objectively proven, but declared as a moral position. And you say you agree with this. So you leave me confused about your refusal to accept what seems to me to be a very obvious point that harm can and does exist before birth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Percy, posted 08-12-2018 8:45 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 9:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 391 of 441 (838130)
08-14-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Percy
08-14-2018 9:07 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Most certainly, but I wasn't saying anything so obvious.
But I was, and I did so many times.
You split it right before the qualifying phrase that the continuum has increasing harm with termination.
Yes, I did that deliberately to show the two parts to the argument, the bit we agree on and the bit we don't. That way we can avoid doing what we're doing now - arguing about things we agree on.
Harm is also a legal principle and it *is* applied to animals regardless of vet's bills. You can not torture your own dog. It's another subjective moral position.
I said I don't know.
And I'm trying to understand why you don't know. I doubt that there are many people in the world that wouldn't simply know that it would be wrong to arbitrarily kill a baby immediately before birth. Most I suspect would assume that it was first degree murder. This isn't a fine decision to my mind, and I suspect to everyone else's here, it's unthinkable.
You conclusion about a moral duty to protect the fetus is your own view and is nowhere found in Roe v. Wade.
When I typed that I knew you'd jump at this tiny little escape route. I doesn't say moral or ethical and it also says that there's no legal precedent, but still it made a decision in favour of the baby. On what possible grounds other than moral or ethical could that decision have been made?
You are correct that it is "simply declared that the State a 'compelling interest'", but that isn't equivalent to declaring it a moral position.
What word would you prefer and why on earth do you think it matters? The state says that it is wrong to kill a baby after x weeks. It was compelling. Why has it said that?
No, I don't agree with this.
You bloodywell did!
Percy writes:
I think my position is summed up pretty well in the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision quoted in the same Abortion in the United States artcil you cited in your Message 369

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 9:07 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 7:17 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 395 of 441 (838140)
08-14-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Stile
08-14-2018 12:13 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Stile writes:
Tangle's other-end-absurdity: to say that killing a baby moments-before-it's-born is better than killing a baby moments-after-it's-born.
For the record, Tangle says that there is no difference between killing a baby just before birth and killing it just after. It's Percy that seems to think that there is.
How on earth these mistakes keep being made is interesting but very frustrating.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Stile, posted 08-14-2018 12:13 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Stile, posted 08-14-2018 2:08 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 5:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 409 of 441 (838169)
08-15-2018 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Percy
08-14-2018 5:01 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
Percy doesn't know if there is.
But you agree with the Roe verdict!!
The verdict that says it's wrong to kill a baby after x weeks. We both agree that. How can you agree and then say you don't know?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Percy, posted 08-14-2018 5:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 414 of 441 (838174)
08-15-2018 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Percy
08-15-2018 7:17 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
I'm trying to understand why you don't realize you don't know, either.
I know that it is wrong to arbitrarily kill a baby immediately before is born and if you don't then I'm at a loss to know what to say next that isn't simply offensive.
They said that because they feel it is wrong, not because they can prove it is wrong.
'They feel it's wrong'. Of course they feel that it's wrong! You can't prove that first degree murder is wrong or rape is wrong either. Or that anything is wrong for that matter. These are all moral decisions based on our feelings about harm. Scientific proofs aren't possible in forming these judgements.
But you've invented your own Roe v. Wade interpretation, which I don't agree with. I agree with the actual language of the ruling, not all the things you claim they implied.
How can you agree with Roe which says it's wrong to harm babies after a given time but not agree with Roe saying that?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 7:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Faith, posted 08-15-2018 11:39 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 421 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 416 of 441 (838176)
08-15-2018 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by Percy
08-15-2018 8:15 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
So the Supreme Court conceded that it isn't known when life begins. You reinforced this by never responding to the many times I asked you when life begins.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph! I've said over and over again that not only do I not know when life begins but that nobody knows nor will they ever know. The only thing we know for sure is that the path to a baby starts at conception. (And not when gandad says hello to grandma.)
Here's a link to Roe v. Wade. The word "harm" only appears twice and not in the context you've been using it. Many uses of the word "compelling" place it in quotes, including the first use:
And here's what the judgement comes down to
quote:
So, rather than asserting that human life begins at any specific point, the court simply declared that the State has a "compelling interest" in protecting "potential life" at the point of viability.
Now what possible thing can the state have a compelling interest (in quote marks, note) in protecting the potential life from? Well, the answer is from harm. The harm being to kill it. There's no other possible conclusion.
I agree with their decision that was made in the absence of objective knowledge, and the decision makes clear that they are doing the best they can without such knowledge.
So, like I say, you agree with the decision. But simultaneously claim you don't know.
If all you're saying is that you don't know whether the baby is alive or a person or whatever before birth, well ok, that's a dumb argument but ok, but if you're saying because of that, you don't know whether it's right or wrong to kill a baby just before birth - whilst agreeing with Roe - I just don't know what to say.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:15 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 422 of 441 (838209)
08-16-2018 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Percy
08-15-2018 8:01 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Ok Percy I give up for now. I can only take so much equivocation and avoidance.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Percy, posted 08-15-2018 8:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 8:52 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 424 of 441 (838215)
08-16-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 423 by Percy
08-16-2018 8:52 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before live birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon live birth.
Ok, I'll bite.
Why do you think this matters to the question you have difficulty answering?
If you don't know that killing a baby just before it's born is right or wrong, I simply don't know how to respond. It's so self-evidently an enormous wrong.
It really troubles me that you're still trying to find legal/scientific defintions of words when both science and law have said that they're not possible. We don't intellectualise crimes like murder and rape - we can't prove that they're wrong, we just know they're wrong and society as a whole has accepted it.
Meanwhile the law says that even though they can't yet give un-born babies all the protection of born babies you still can not kill a baby at that late stage because it's quite obvious to them that it's wrong. Why it's not to you is a mystery - especially when you agree with the Roe verdict.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 8:52 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 12:58 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 426 of 441 (838222)
08-16-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Faith
08-16-2018 11:32 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
That's pretty bloody ugly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 428 of 441 (838227)
08-16-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Faith
08-16-2018 11:45 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
I think I would have grabbed the crying baby and run screaming down the halls for help.
There is undeniable harm in the process and we should never forget it. I'm still in favour of early abortion but I don't like it at all - it's not easily defensible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 11:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Faith, posted 08-16-2018 12:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 431 of 441 (838238)
08-16-2018 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Percy
08-16-2018 12:58 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Well I tried, but I'm sorry Percy, I"m no longer interested in discussing this with you, we're not going to make any progress, it'll just annoy both of us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 12:58 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 6:00 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 433 of 441 (838252)
08-17-2018 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 432 by Percy
08-16-2018 6:00 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
This is the third time you've declared you're exiting the discussion. These multiple exits feel very familiar.
One post ago I said I'd be withdrawing for a while because we were not making any progress. You tempted me to reply and I hoped that we might get somewhere. But instead of answering what I believe ro be core questions about the issues you came back with more equivocation and avoidance.
So yeh, I'm now withdrawing from discussing this with you for a while longer.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Percy, posted 08-16-2018 6:00 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Percy, posted 08-17-2018 7:42 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 8:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 436 of 441 (838259)
08-17-2018 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Faith
08-17-2018 8:50 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Hey Tangle, he's equating you with me, shouldn't that set a fire under you to make a huge effort to blast him out of the park?
He's just being childish, I've no need to follow him down.
Hey I understand, dealing with Percy is like trying to nail Jello to the wall (Do you have Jello in the UK?) and all you get for your trouble is accusations upon accusations.
It's certainly a technique but it doesn't bother me, what bothers me is that he's not arguing honestly, he's avoiding answering the questions and being disingenuous. When that point is reached and all that's left is repetition, it's time to pause for a while.
I'll pray for you to get a second wind, herculean level patience and some good pithy rejoinders.
Seems unlikely at the moment, though I'll have another go if I think of anything new to say. Percy will just have to go on counting :-). But If someone can't say that killing a baby just before birth is wrong whilst simultaneously agreeing that the Roe decision to protect the baby from harm is right, then there's nowhere to go.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 8:50 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by Percy, posted 08-17-2018 10:10 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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