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Author Topic:   Evangelical Switch from Pro-choice to Anti-abortion
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 441 (837718)
08-07-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
08-07-2018 4:22 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:
If you were a voter your position would indeed be relevant.
No Phat, I am a voter and still what I think personally is and should be irrelevant to the question of abortion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 441 (837733)
08-08-2018 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Percy
08-08-2018 8:04 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Percy writes:
I think it could also be argued that inconvenient is the wrong term, that it minimizes the impact of an unwanted child. Life-shattering might be more accurate.
Remember the child.
If a child really is unwanted, if a parent really is unable or unwilling to properly raise the child but never does anything so egregious as to warrant removing the child from that situation, does society have any responsibility for creating the situation in the first place?
Mother always liked YOU best!

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Percy, posted 08-08-2018 8:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 441 (837767)
08-08-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Tangle
08-08-2018 12:30 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
Sure there is, if you drink drive you'll lose your licence. If you steal you'll be punished. If you murder you'll go to jail.
Sometimes. Sometimes not.
There is nothing absolute about any of those.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Tangle, posted 08-08-2018 12:30 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 325 of 441 (837803)
08-09-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
08-09-2018 12:36 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Faith writes:
Are you saying that even if it IS ending a human life it is fine to abort it for the reasons you give, more time for husband, friends, social life, hobbies and so on?
What we are saying is that it is irrelevant whether or not we think having an abortion is justified for the reasons given; what is relevant is whether the mother, possibly the father, and the medical staff that are dealing with that particular instance think it is justified.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 12:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:41 PM jar has replied
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2018 4:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 331 of 441 (837817)
08-09-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Faith
08-09-2018 2:41 PM


try to stop lying Faith
Faith writes:
Oh right, what can I be thinking? Murder has always been an elective procedure in civilized nations.
Yet another example of the utter dishonesty of the ProLife Cult of Ignorance.
I said nothing about murder nor is abortion murder.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 2:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 441 (837830)
08-09-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Tangle
08-09-2018 4:51 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
I'm really confused. First off you say that the matter is none of our business (confusing society generally with us as individuals) and that it's up to the mother to do what she sees fit. Neither you nor Percy will deliberate on the consequences of that which is the possibility of very late term abortion.
You're confused because you have never learned how to read. Both Percy and I have answered that question; we do not know or have any opinion because it is the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular even that have the information and should make the decision.
Tangle writes:
Now you're saying that the father and the medical staff also have a say. The medical staff also have to work within the law, they can't simply do as the mother requests. Are you saying that is wrong?
The law also gives the unborn baby rights too. Usually it's the right not to be electively killed after a date decided by a jurisdiction based on medical advice. In the UK it's 24 weeks. Am I right in thinking that you would give the unborn child no rights at all?
Sorry Charlie but I have been saying all along that others should have input into the decision.
I am not the person with either the authority or capability of conferring rights on others.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2018 4:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2018 6:08 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 337 of 441 (837836)
08-09-2018 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Tangle
08-09-2018 6:08 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Learn to read what YOU write too.
Tangle writes:
The law also gives the unborn baby rights too. Usually it's the right not to be electively killed after a date decided by a jurisdiction based on medical advice. In the UK it's 24 weeks. Am I right in thinking that you would give the unborn child no rights at all?
and now:
Tangle writes:
You're not being asked to confer rights, you're being asked for your opinion.
You really need to slow down and learn a few basics about reading and responding.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Tangle, posted 08-09-2018 6:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 2:50 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 441 (837858)
08-10-2018 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Tangle
08-10-2018 2:50 AM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle, I know you think all these equivocations and insults are very, very clever, but it actually comes over as petulance and childishness and isn't helping the debate.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Tangle, posted 08-10-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Faith, posted 08-10-2018 7:00 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 354 of 441 (837966)
08-11-2018 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Tangle
08-11-2018 1:33 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Tangle writes:
But given that obvious point, we - society - still have to arrive at an unambiguous decision about it.]
Why?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 1:33 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 08-11-2018 3:56 PM jar has replied
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 4:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 357 of 441 (837983)
08-11-2018 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Phat
08-11-2018 3:56 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
Phat writes:
Because he wants a law in place to keep the action from crossing the line into the murder of the unborn. Obviously leaving it arbitrarily up to the parent(s) and Doctors on a case by case basis might cross that line.
What line?
The problem is that any line will be dependent on the specifics of each individual case and only the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular case would have those specifics.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Phat, posted 08-11-2018 3:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 08-11-2018 4:48 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 361 of 441 (837987)
08-11-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Tangle
08-11-2018 4:53 PM


Re: If abortion is understood to be ending a human life, THEN we can talk alternatives
And sophomoric trivialities are still sophomoric trivialities that still do not answer the question of why a law related to abortion is needed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Tangle, posted 08-11-2018 4:53 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 401 of 441 (838150)
08-14-2018 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Faith
08-14-2018 2:24 PM


the issue of abortion is more complex than just some timeline.
Faith writes:
I've been asking for people to designate a stage at which they consider the fetus human in the sense that they would not abort it.
And my answer is that there is no such point period; any decision related to abortion is far more complex than just a time line.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 2:24 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by NoNukes, posted 08-14-2018 3:28 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 406 of 441 (838163)
08-14-2018 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Faith
08-14-2018 8:38 PM


abortion should consider all of the facts in each case
Faith writes:
I'm assuming normal healthy conditions for the development from conception to birth of a normal healthy embryo- to-infant in everything I've said.
But that is an unwarranted assumption without knowing all of the specifics of each individual case; and it is also not the only KNOWN human being directly involved in every case or any of the other people or factors again in that individual case.
The only KNOWN human directly involved is the mother.
The only people who have the greatest knowledge of all the factors in that particular incident are the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular case.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 8:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 411 of 441 (838171)
08-15-2018 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Faith
08-14-2018 10:19 PM


Re: abortion should consider all of the facts in each case
Faith writes:
the point is that I'm talking about normal healthy development and not specific cases, that is I'm speaking in general about the normal experience of pregnancy and birth. In my personal experience that is the typical situation, in which complications are unusual or relatively easily dealt with and physical problems at the level that would necessitate abortion nonexistent.
The point is, you are talking about your fantasy but the decisions are made in reality.
But that is an unwarranted assumption without knowing all of the specifics of each individual case; and there is only one KNOWN human being (the mother) directly involved in every case. Nor do you consider the impact on any of the other people or factors affecting other people in that individual case.
The only people who have the greatest knowledge of all the factors in that particular incident are the mother, possibly the father and the medical staff involved in that particular case.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 10:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
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