Christianity and the End Times

I feel you. When I first "got saved" I had a natural high that critics would suggest was naive emotionalism and "feeling special" but it was a genuine inner joy that I have lost. I could say that reality has beaten me down...some of the arguments even here always challenge my thinking and never give me any hope--but in a way, this is a good thing in that my faith is being tested and refined.I do spend time in prayer and meditation, though not in a disciplined way such as jaywill likely does. I don't even go to church all the time anymore.EvC has challenged my faith and belief, and unlike you, I actually listen to the logic, reason, and reality-based arguments to a degree. I DO feel that when I am asked how I know that I am in a relationship with God, my opponents would never understand how such a thing could be possible...whereas jaywill likely would understand as would you.I can never understand how jar can be a Christian and yet not understand how a relationship with God is possible...though he likely would suggest that being in a relationship with the least of these is the same thing for him...thus he continues to do good works on a daily basis. I also don't understand how you have found no way to recover your first love. By faith, I don't believe I have ever lost it nor can lose it, but it's not by my doing that the relationship endures---it is entirely Gods doing.

Love can never die and can be recovered. Being "In Love" cannot...in my opinion. Once a kid knows that Santa was never real, they wont recover the innocence of that early belief. What I don't understand is those here who claim to have once believed and now do not---and they never recover that first love. I have to be honest. I trust my critics and opponents to a degree because I dont see them as agents of satan or any different than you or I. Thats all any of us can do. That and attempting to be honest with our statements and our feelings. Do I believe in an End Times? Logically I see many great challenges coming that will topple the US middle class and transfer much of the wealth left to us by our parents into paying the darn bill that the US has acquired. This ongoing event alone will make many of us bitter and will test our faith.

In The Coming Epiphany the author has a whole Chapter describing America's role:

quote:

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The clearest mention is found in Revelation 18. This chapter describes the end times
Babylon and the judgment that it will receive. I believe America is
the end-times Babylon talked about in this chapter. Let us examine this
chapter to find out why I believe America is the end-times Babylon, and
what will happen to her.
The main reason why I along with many others believe that
America is the Babylon talked about in Revelation 18 is because of several
verses that, when considered collectively, lead us to conclude that
America is the only country that fulfills all of the parameters listed in the
verses. Let us examine what the scriptures say about this modern day end times
Babylon and see how they undeniably point to America.

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1. End-times Babylon is a great nation that receives judgment for its
many sins.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the
great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils,
and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and
hateful bird. (Rev. 18:2)
2. This nation is a superpower and has world dominance and
importance. It has also spread its corruption to the world.
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication
with her. (Rev. 18:3)
3. The merchants of the world are made rich through trading with
this nation. This nation consumes huge amounts of goods.
And the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the
abundance of her delicacies. (Rev. 18:3)
And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;
for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The
merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of
pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all
thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner
vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and
marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and
frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and
beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls
of men. (Rev. 18:11—13)
4. This nation is proud and arrogant and considers herself to be
invincible and the greatest nation on earth.

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How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so
much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit
a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev. 18:7)
5. This nation is typified by an extravagant lifestyle.
And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine
linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious
stones, and pearls! (Rev. 18:16)
6. Other nations are controlled by her and given great riches by her.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and
lived deliciously with her. (Rev. 18:9)
7. This nation is a coastal nation, with deepwater ports and much
international trade.
And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors,
and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off. (Rev. 18:17)
8. This nation has defenses in the heavens.
Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she
should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers
come unto her, saith the Lord. (Jer. 51:53)
Which nation is the only one in the world that meets all those
qualifications? America! We are the greatest country in the world. We are
the only remaining superpower. We dominate world politics and dictate
much of what happens in other countries through whom and what we fund

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in those countries. We have the largest Gross National Product (GNP) in
the world, far surpassing all other countries. We buy huge amounts of
goods from other countries. In fact, the economy of many countries would
collapse without our trade dollars. We are a proud and arrogant people and
feel that we are invincible and that we are the greatest nation in the world.

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But the Roman Empire is...as you say...gone.

I would argue that hubris is the primary reason that America will be judged.

Not sure I agree. Why is it hubris to imagine/believe in a God who is concerned about today's people?Given the current state of the world, why is it not reasonable to contemplate a possible end of human effort? I think it is hubris to believe that humanity must succeed. We quite possibly may fail.

I'm not saying anybody hopes for destruction...at least I don't. I worry about the future, however. jar was right in that Biblical Christians represent one of the greatest threats to global stability. They simply won't contemplate being left in the dust by the rest of the world.
Our nation spends more on the military than do the next 8 combined. If we find ourselves threatened to be relegated to economic poverty, we may well pull a trigger or two. This would possibly lead to America being destroyed...a sure sign of prophecy fulfilled, even though it may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just a warning, jaywill. This one (PaulK) is a worthy opponent...and I do mean opponent....he is an unbeliever. I will say that his arguments are well presented, however...he indeed does study the text quite well. If you wish to engage him in arguments, you would do well to pray for him also. He is an old hand here at EvC..been around even before me.And a word for the peanut gallery watching these exchanges: Believers by and large learn their interpretations of Biblical prophecy and apologetics from other like-minded people such as themselves (in regards to who Jesus was and is and the meaning of the Bible) whereas both unbelievers (and jar, who somehow is a believer of sorts) use the plain text as written, no assumption of inerrancy or overarching purpose from God, and no ultimate motive or aim apart from causing people to question or even doubt what they have been taught. Though frustrating at times, it forces me to reexamine what I have been taught as obvious and to cause my prayer life to bolster my faith rather than the strict literal evidence that is attempting to be laid down. In conclusion, the only purpose in engaging in a Bible Study with an unbeliever is to force me to realize that I am not fighting or disagreeing with them so much as I am being tested as to my own character and motivations as a believer.That's my 2 cents. Oh and one more thing----what is the dictionary definition of a contrarian? Because i always refer to ringo as one! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Notice that she isnt getting mad and using CAPITAL letters as often. She must really not want to get left behind...though I would argue that nobody does....even unbelievers! How are you, Stile? You are always one of my favorite unbelievers to talk with. You sometimes make more sense with your logic than many believers I know. Oohrah for free Will! What is your take on the distant possibility that a Rapture of sorts could occur? Any comments? Edited by Phat, : added quote

In the event of a Rapture, I would assume that only one out of ten or less would make it. It would likely be attributed to an evidence-backed event such as a mass UFO abduction or something. It would cause global optimism, unity, and resolve for those left behind. And the die-hard believers whom would be left behind would be stuck with a bunch of religious nuts who also didn't make it out on the first boat.I think jar may even be right in that a few folks from other religions or who were unreligious may even make it out...based on their love for Jesus by doing for the least of these unconsciously...And I would be stuck in a world that will likely happen anyway...rapture or no rapture.So I may as well quit worrying about whether a Rapture will happen or not and just keep doing what I'm doing. I will die someday anyway.

They may assign one to you that looks like Long John Silver! That would be interesting to watch!

The only way that I could see believers actually wanting a rapture is if they were miserable, unhappy, or more likely actually persecuted(as the Jews were in WW II) here and now. If I am honest, and if I allow myself to believe in the dogma known as "The Rapture" I would have to assume that my character and behavior now would be worthy of being taken to another better place by a benevolent God. If He were to snatch me up simply because at one time in my life I asked Jesus into my heart, this would mean He would also snatch YOU up, Tangle...because I am assuming that you at one time early in your life did just that...even though you are now an unbeliever.If, on the other hand, God only chose people who were trying their best to be in communion with God and logically also doing the best that they could for others, this would comprise a distinct minority of people the world over.2nd Thessalonians, the scripture most commonly used to support a Rapture, talks about those who have no love for the truth (which must mean a living Christ) and thus believe "the lie".....but if we were honest, we could even claim that all of the end timers talk itself is the lie...you would likely say that we believers waste far too much time on such stuff and should simply go fishing...(however, helping others is always kosher!)If I wanted a Rapture as much as Faith does, it would be because I was tired of my life and simply wanted a relief from the stress of it all.Quite honestly, I'm not ready too go to a place where there are streets of gold, many mansions, scores of angels and saints and everyone singing hallelujah 24/7...it all seems contrived and not within my current character...so I doubt I will make the first bus.

OK...take this "pieces parts"...

They perish because they did not receive the love of the truth. What is the truth referred to?

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What delusion does God send?

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looks like 12 speaks of belief rather than works.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

I understand. I feel closer to God too lately...but I'm in no hurry to leave this place. Perhaps if I had a chronic medical condition or was broke or was being tortured or persecuted I would desire to be with God physically a lot quicker.Perhaps he is simply preparing us for the reality that being with Him eternally...is serious business.For those who do not believe or cannot believe, no such desire would exist apart from fantasy. You mentioned returning to your first love. I sincerely hope that you do.
jaywill certainly helps...you can feel his joy concerning spiritual matters....and he is patient and has so far not shown any human traits of blowing up or getting angry at being scoffed at and challenged.I often talk as if i am a skeptic myself, but that is my chosen way of expressing my honesty. I am most definitely a believer,but it is more challenging now than it was when I first got saved because I do not ignore arguments and proposals from unbelievers as you do. Some believe that entertaining such doctrines is harmful to the growth (and joy) of a believer, but for me, it is honest...though a hard path.

so basically you are saying that the Bible books contain myriad examples of failed prophecy.Also that Jesus was wrong a time or two.also that the "god character" needs correcting by humans at times according to the stories.concluding that the Bible was written, edited and redacted by humans.

Did humans make up GOD?

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does GOD exist?

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What do you believe? IF humans wrote the stories, all that you have are humans charging other humans to do good.

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Why claim Episcopalianism? Why not simply come out as a secular humanist?

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo