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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 138 (837593)
08-06-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
07-30-2018 4:41 PM


Re: No Apologies
A good word about Deuteronomy. What about whom Jesus was addressing in Matthew?
jar writes:
"Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"
IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."
Keep in mind, however, that Jesus was addressing men who acknowledged God and who did not deny His existence. It says metaphorically that He addresses all nations, but He is talking with and teaching people whom did believe in God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 4:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 3:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 138 (837597)
08-06-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
08-06-2018 3:57 PM


Re: No Apologies
OK I think I get your point. You are essentially saying that Jesus emphasized to them what they should do for others and not worry so much about pleasing Him.
But lets assume your basic argument concening the later attempts to change the Great Commission. What motives would the author of John have had regarding teaching what he did?
What motives would Paul have had? How do these motives stand up in the overall message which they espoused?
In other words, why did the message have to be changed? And why did the early church approve of the additions?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 3:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 138 (837604)
08-06-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-06-2018 4:27 PM


Re: No Apologies
...how could anyone know what the motives of the authors of the stories were and why would their motives even matter?
How would the motives of the Sheep and Goat sermon matter any more, then?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 138 (837615)
08-06-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-06-2018 4:38 PM


Re: No Apologies
jar writes:
A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".
Even the goats?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 5:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 138 (837788)
08-09-2018 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-06-2018 4:38 PM


Re: No Apologies
Im talking about the motives of the author.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-06-2018 4:38 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 10:30 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 138 (837791)
08-09-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
08-09-2018 10:30 AM


Re: No Apologies
In that case it matters little if and how the Great Commission changed.
So what if the deal seems sweeter and easier now? Its hard enough to get people to do anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 10:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 10:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 138 (837816)
08-09-2018 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
08-09-2018 10:40 AM


Re: No Apologies
Again, the point is that the Great Commission WAS changed.
It is simply additional evidence that the Bible is the product of humans each creating the narrative they want to market.
So if Jesus actually said the Sheep/Goats parable, we could argue..(as you do) that the message represents what He wants us all to do, correct? You have always preferred this verse as one of your defining scriptures as to what Christianity is (or should be) about. Then when other Christians bring up scriptures from John or 2nd peter or Romans, you argue that these were attempts to change the original message.
My point is why should we give any more weight to Matthew 25 than we do to John or Romans?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 10:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 3:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 138 (838599)
08-24-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
08-09-2018 3:50 PM


Re: No Apologies
jar writes:
You should look at the whole body of writings and be honest about what is written. You should stop looking for things that can be taken out of context to suit YOUR agenda.
Dont the atheists on The Atheist Experience do the same thing? Does not their show represent an agenda of education and information?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 3:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-24-2018 12:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 138 (839171)
09-04-2018 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
08-09-2018 3:50 PM


Re: No Apologies
jar writes:
You should look at the whole body of writings and be honest about what is written. You should stop looking for things that can be taken out of context to suit YOUR agenda.
My only agenda is to promote the belief that Jesus Christ is alive in Spirit and waiting for humanity to freely accept and internalize this fact.
You and ringo, in contrast, appear to promote the idea that WE humans are responsible for our future and that no God (or Messiah) is going to rescue us.
Granted I see your point and yet do not believe it. You may say that by refusing to accept the facts that lead to your conclusions I am being dishonest with myself and others, but at this point in time, I do not concur.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 08-09-2018 3:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 09-04-2018 6:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 138 (839200)
09-05-2018 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by jar
09-05-2018 5:46 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Her examples do emphasize the doctrine of hereditary sin, however. An Episcopal Dictionary Of The Church "taken from the dogma of your cult"....
Anglican formularies have tended to speak of sanctification as the process of God's work within us by means of which we grow into the fullness of the redeemed life. In the 1979 BCP, sanctification has been closely associated with the Holy Eucharist, as in the prayer of thanksgiving: "Sanctify us also that we may faithfully receive this holy Sacrament, and serve you in unity, constancy, and peace; and at the last day bring us with all your saints into the joy of your eternal kingdom" (Eucharistic Prayer A, BCP, p. 363); and: "We pray you, gracious God, to send your Holy Spirit upon these gifts that they may be the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and his Blood of the new Covenant. Unite us to your Son in his sacrifice, that we may be acceptable through him, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit" (Eucharistic Prayer B, BCP, p. 369).
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 5:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 9:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 138 (839207)
09-05-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
09-05-2018 9:25 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Good response! I actually did read all of what you quoted. Thanks for reemphasizing it though.
jar writes:
Reading on you would have seen:
quote:
Although the consequences of original sin have not been emphasized as strongly in Anglicanism as in other Protestant traditions, Article IX of the Articles of Religion, "Of Original or Birth-Sin," states that "man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil"
Again, even there it talks about the consequences of the individual's behavior and nature, not what those long dead might have done or even what the individual actually does.
Exactly! I am also talking about behavior and nature. I don't simply expect God to rescue me without also changing me. Again, what I find irritating about your arguments is primarily the way that you verbally belittle your opponents.
jar writes:
Again, if you look at the whole of the Episcopal Church's position it is that we are charged to rise above any innate self-centeredness.
So my question to you is this:
Can we rise above our innate self-centeredness, arrogance, and character without Gods help?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 9:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 10:28 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 138 (839212)
09-05-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
09-05-2018 10:28 AM


I've Fallen And I Can't Get Up!
Just agreeing on a global consensus for addressing global warming will require herculean sacrifice from every nation...be they spiritual or secular.
I predict that we will see some very challenging times--though I refuse to believe that we are facing the last days of humanity here on the planet. I will say that we could collectively become victims of a self-fulfilling prophecy if we fight amongst ourselves as to what everyone should believe.
You have said before that Jesus was a failed Messiah, but the words that He said will be used to justify many actions by many people. Let's just hope that it all works out.
It is ironic that the common dogma is fear of a unified one world government that is a secular humanist one and which minimizes the need for Jesus or religion in general. How ironic when, in fact, there will need to be a unified global consensus in order to deal with major problems. Whether or not this fulfills the prophetic interpretations of the apologists or becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy remains to be seen.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 10:28 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 138 (839505)
09-09-2018 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
09-07-2018 7:32 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
jar writes:
Where are the tons of witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden?
AbE: And witness evidence is the absolute weakest least reliable evidence possible. Further, there are NOT tons of witnesses of any supernatural event.
If as you say it is but a story, the readers are the witnesses of what happened in the Garden of Eden.
And if God is simply a character in a book, all we are witnesses of is what the book says.
Do you believe that God exists outside of the book? Not asking if you know...that would require evidence. Which also explains why you always ask how anyone would know.
Do you believe that God exists outside of the book...or any book....yes or no?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-07-2018 7:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 11:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 138 (839508)
09-09-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
09-09-2018 11:58 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
jar writes:
If I believed that God existed would that even have any meaning?
Good question. Do you think that there would be any way for you to know?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 11:58 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 2:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 138 (839515)
09-09-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
09-09-2018 2:16 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Are you more likely to agree with what an atheist points out what is written in Genesis 2&3 or what a believer says in written in Genesis 2&3 or would you actually go read Genesis 2&3 and see for yourself what it says? Can you read Genesis 2&3 and just accept what is actually written or must you filter it through the additional layers of Dogmatic Apologist additions and revisions?
First of all, why would I have any reason to mistrust the apologists? How do I know that their interpretation is any worse than what I may come up with through a plain reading? What type of reality are you hinting that I must accept?
For example, you believe(correct me if I'm wrong) that the story teaches that God gave us the gift of discernment and that this is enough...that we should not expect any other interference, guidance, or help from God.
In fact, you believe that there is no evidence that God interferes with or guides, adjusts, and charts peoples destiny. So in answer to whether I would trust an atheist's plain reading vs some believers, I would say no....I'll stick with the believers. And yet you claim to be a believer and yet teach that I Must do what needs to be done in my life. Its just not how I was taught is all. You may as well be an atheist.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 2:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 09-09-2018 3:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
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