Christianity and the End Times

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And verse 9 only reinforces my point.

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It reinforces that God's enemy is cast down because of war against him.
But there was war in heaven against him because of the rapture of the man-child.Since the Devil knew that the birth of the man-child would mean a strategic defeat to him he stands before the woman to make sure such does no come forth. Instead of being devoured he was caught up to God and to his throne.
Had he BEEN devoured he would NOT have been caught up to God and to His throne.Then the angels would not have the ground to war so against Satan to drive him down.Why not at any OTHER time could not the good angels war against the Devil and his angels?Some of us are not so blind to the nature of the coordination between the heavenly forces and the overcoming saints.In Second Samuel 5 the sound of the heavenly army coordinating with the faithful and obedient human saints on earth. The angels are fighting the spiritual side of the warfare on BEHALF of the faithful overcoming saints of God.In the conquest of Canaan also the Captain of the spiritual army of Jehovah coordinates with the earthly captain Joshua. God's interests are wrapped up in the victory of his saints. The divine Captain did not come to take sides. He came to take charge.
The gaining of the Good Land is God's business for His eternal purpose.
And in the gaining of the whole planet is God's business.The warring angelic forces are coordinating with the faithful saints to accomplish the plan of God.Me:

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This is not a matter of me interpreting Luke 10:17-20 per se. It is a matter of me APPLYING its truth to Revelation 12.

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You:

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It is neither. It is using Luke 10:17-20 as an excuse to misrepresent Revelation 12.

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I am not surprised that you see no connection.The last vision in chapter 11 before the affairs of chapter 12 is a vision of the Ark of the Covenant in heaven. Revelation 11:19 - 12:1 Just as the Ark of the Covenant was so crucial to the ancient warfare of Joshua in his conquering the Good Land for God's purpose, so it is seen again in connection with the man-child being brought forth in resurrection and rapture to God's throne for the conquering of the Satanic forces. The gaining of the whole earth is now in view.As the Army of Jehovah obediently marches to conquer Jericho, the Ark of the Covenant goes before to assure them of God's promises to those covenanted saints. There is nearly nothing brand new in the book of Revelation. To understand the significances of symbols we have to look to how that symbol may have been used before elsewhere, previously in the Bible.Before the strategic victory of the man-child WITH the angelic servants of the saints is seen the Ark of the Covenant. God will be faithful to His promises of His covenant for His interests on the earth.Just before Revelation 12 a glimpse of the Ark of the Covenant (Rev. 11:19) is seen before the vision of the victorious overcomers who constitute the man-child bring in the kingdom of God.

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False. The stated reason for rejoicing is that Satan has fallen and his accusations would therefore cease.

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It is not that I see something extra. It is that you don't see enough.It is not me adding something but you are constricted in what you have the capacity to see.

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No, joy is to the heavens and those who dwell in them. Your overcomers are not mentioned.

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Those in heaven include those just raptured to heaven.When Jesus descends He is accompanied by His mighty ones who are the overcomers who being raptured to heaven are now ready to come back down to the earth WITH Him.This is seen in chapter 19 Joel. At the battle of Armageddon Christ descends with His army of overcoming saints. These are not defeated but overcoming mighty ones .The come down with Christ for victory because they previously were taken up to Christ in victory before the last three and one half years of the age.If you think that there are humans in Heaven before the taking up of the man-child show from Scripture any reason to believe so.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Cont. at PaulKI am not seeing anything extra. You are myopic and restricted in your seeing this chapter. You don't see enough yet.

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It is Michael and his angels who cast the devil out.

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Repeating - the angels are the servants of the saints who are to inherit salvation. With this cooperation between the overcoming saints and the angelic forces what is bound by the saints on earth is what is bound in heaven in power. Throughout the ages some saints have found this harmony. Some overcoming saints in the spiritual warfare have found this exercise of authority in the oneness of forsaking the self and uniting in Christ for the purpose of Christ.Me:

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4.) The disciples' work is to be an extension of the work of Christ.

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You:

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This really doesn’t seem to be relevant.

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No, it is not irrelevant at all. It is central to the whole Bible and particularly the book of Revelation.The two places in Revelation where John is SO overcome by the greatness of the vision that he errs and begins to worship the angel that is showing him are in Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22:8 .Both times the angel had to rebuke John that it is only God whom he should fall before and worship. Why was John so beside himself and overcome in these two places ?It is because the accompanying of the saints to match Christ was so overwhelming that he was overcome with awe.In chapter 19 it is the saints who have made themselves ready and are invited to the marriage celebration of the Lamb. Finally, some have come forth from all defeat to correspond to the overcoming Victor Christ.And in chapter 22 not a remnant but the entire Body of all believers thoughout history now match Christ as His counterpart. They have ALL finally come forth from defeat to match and mirror the overcoming Victor Christ their Savior.The victory of the saints through the work of Jesus Christ is a major relevancy in the Bible and in its last consummating book, Revelation .Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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It reinforces that God's enemy is cast down because of war against him.
But there was war in heaven against him because of the rapture of the man-child.

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It reinforces the point that the rejoicing is because of the fall, not the beginning of the war or the event that caused the devil to rebel.

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I am not surprised that you see no connection.

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But I do not say that there is NO connection. There are similarities but those do not mean that the passage from Luke overrides what the Revelation says.

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It is not that I see something extra. It is that you don't see enough.

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It is not me adding something but you are constricted in what you have the capacity to se

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It’s not you seeing anything extra, it’s just you using flimsy excuses to pretend that Revelation 12 says things it doesn’t and ignore what it does say. I would have to be blind indeed to miss that.

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Those in heaven include those just raptured to heaven.

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When Jesus descends He is accompanied by His mighty ones who are the overcomers who being raptured to heaven are now ready to come back down to the earth WITH Him.

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That assumes that the overcomers are Raptured to Heaven. That’s what you are supposedly arguing for. The mighty ones are more likely angels anyway.I see nothing else that actually addresses the point, just more of your barrage of irrelevance.And I see that you are trying your old trick of proving relevance by talking about something else altogether.

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And I see that you are trying your old trick of proving relevance by talking about something else altogether.

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What I am not doing is falling for your trick of dumbing down the Bible to your level of unbelief and ignorance of the larger picture.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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The End is Coming Soon is quite a cliche. There have been numerous occasions in the past where Christians have believed that the end times are almost upon us. And - certainly today - there is no shortage of people prepared to profit from it. We even see daft ideas like bar-codes being the Mark of the Beast (they aren’t).
But what does the Bible really say. You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse.

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I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.

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You're going to gloat over a parade of strawmen.And we are to assume that all situations in the church you are of course familiar with?Your "survey" will be limited by your own experience or lack thereof. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I can understand how a smaller group within the church was (were) overcomers.

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This realization was a major milestone in my Christian life.It is good to go through Revelation with more attention to this aspect of the book - the overcoming of Christ and the church.I don't think most studies I've seen of Revelation give enough attention to this.
Many make Antichrist the centerpiece of the story.John collapses in worship when he sees the remnant of overcomers. (Rev.19:10)
Then he collapses again when he sees the entire New Jerusalem in eternity of overcomers. (Rev. 22:8)Praise the victorious Christ! Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is no wonder that the saved overcomers are so intimately related to Christ.Daniel's prophecy of the stone cut without hands and smiting the huge image shows the enlargement of the stone into a kingdom. Ie. Jesus Christ enlarged into a kingdom. And the interpretation of the dream concerning this smiting stone follows: Jesus Christ is that stone cut out of the mountain without hands. He will come and crush the worldly empires and replace them with the kingdom of God.The four sections of the great image do not mean all of the earth's human kingdoms. The four are only representative of all the earth's human kingdoms.The stone is Christ. But because the stone grows into a mountain, meaning a eternal kingdom that fills the whole earth, the redeemed saints united with Christ are included.Just as the man-child in is so intimately related to Christ so the stone expands to include the co-reigning saints of Christ. Rather the kingdom is given to them. The co-rulers of the kingdom are His people - Is the little stone cut without hands then Christ alone or Christ enlarged into a "mountain" of many co-kings ? It is hard to tell at what point the ONE King is expanded into many co-rulers.The stone is Christ. Yet God's eternal purpose is to dispense the life and nature of Christ into His saints. When He comes in the reign, the overcomers come in to CO-reign with Him, by Him, and in Him. It is not too much to say the stone of Christ is enlarged by Him being dispensed into His saints who are to co-reign over the crushed nations as Himself. This is another strong ground to interpret the man-child taken up to God and His throne as the overcoming saints.As He received from His Father, so in like manner they CO-RECEIVE.
The life unity with Him qualifies them in forgiveness, in God's indwelling, in sanctification, in resurrection and rapture and reigning.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : kingsdoms changed to kingdoms

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I agree that the first disciples including Paul probably expected Christ’s return in their lifetimes, but it was no different then than it is now, with Faith expecting it to happen in the near future. People have always looked on the dark sides of things and figure that it’s about time to shut the project down.

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In reading the epistles of Peter, John and Paul you don't think that they prepared the disciples for the long haul? I think they, as latter disciples, wanted Christ to return as soon as possible. But this desire did not cloud their sensibilities to prepare their audience for the long distance run rather than a short sprint.

Absolutely, they never thought Jesus would not return during their lifetime. It was not until the unknown author of 2 Peter that they had to admit that Jesus had simply been wrong and there would not be a second coming during the lifetime of any of the disciples and maybe never be a second coming.Thus was born the profession of Apologist.

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Absolutely, they never thought Jesus would not return during their lifetime. It was not until the unknown author of 2 Peter that they had to admit that Jesus had simply been wrong and there would not be a second coming during the lifetime of any of the disciples and maybe never be a second coming.

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Thus was born the profession of Apologist.

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Jesus prepared His disciples for the long haul. "The end is not yet. " He was preparing them for the long haul.Besides it is made all the more significant when unbelievers like yourself are given way enough time to try everything to destroy the Gospel."The church of God is an anvil that has worn down many hammers."So keep hammering away since that is your life's dubious crowning achievement. You TRIED! Here Jesus gives His disciples heads up that many who did not witness the major things of His life, would be blessed in believing the Gospel. He prepared us for the long distance run. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Peter prepared the disciples for his demise in his Second Epistle.But before that Jesus had informed Peter that he very well may grow old and be martyred before Christ's second coming. No prediction that young Peter would be swooped up off the earth shortly.When the disciples WANTED Jesus to come again did not cloud their realization that they better hunker down and prepare themselves and their audience for the long haul.Besides, any who are reading here - on the day your heart beats its last beat, that is the "end times" for you before God. Me too. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Do you really think your dishonesty is really consistent with being a Christian?
Matthew 24 says that the wars are not the immediate sign of the end, but that hardly means that the end would come centuries after those wars. All the subsequent verses are addressed to the disciples as if they would witness those events, and verse 34 says that the end will come within the lifetime of people living then.The synoptic Gospels, 1 Thessalonians and the Revelation all point to the end arriving in the 1st Century AD - or the early 2nd Century at the outside.Your quote from John is hardly relevant either - there were many living at that time who never saw Jesus at all, let alone were granted an inspection of his wounds as Thomas was, according to verse 20:27. And among those many certainly some became Christians in the following decades. Did you really not think of that ?

No date can be affixed on His physical coming again from anything in the New Testament.It is simply an unknown.But what parted lovers don't long to be together again soon?His desire to be with them in every way and their desire for the same thing is a distinct matter from a fixed date soon or distant to have. "In an hour when you think not" the Lord Jesus comes.That assures that Christ could accumulate a people living by Him in vigilance and expectation. QUALITY of life was as or more important to Him then calender date of reunion.Besides, the Gospels are very balanced in their approach. If we only had John and Matthew we would not have the impression that Jesus went away. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The tactics of these skeptics include making each part of the Scripture as unrelated to any other part as they can.This is to try to "kill the beast" by dividing it up to conquer it. Divide and conquer the revelation of the Bible!"Reduce the Bible parts to unrelated fragments and scraps of a scape book.
Splice and slice it to reduce its overall message."This and casting doubt on authorship. "Peter could not have written Second Peter."As if an elderly man could not have worked in coordination with another helper to write a letter which bore the style of both people. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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No date can be affixed on His physical coming again from anything in the New Testament.

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I did not affix a date, I merely pointed out that the New Testament repeatedly points to a relatively narrow window of time, a window that ended long ago.As I also pointed out, your attempts to pretend otherwise were at best obvious falsehoods.