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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1204 of 1748 (839267)
09-05-2018 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1199 by Phat
09-05-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
It establishes who said it...whether it was actually God talking through human authors or whether it is simply a product of human imagination
If the content doesn’t matter why would it matter where that content originated ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 4:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 4:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1206 of 1748 (839269)
09-05-2018 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Phat
09-05-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
The truth is still the truth regardless of the motive of the teller.
In Genesis 3 the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , did open Adam and Eve’s eyes and did make them like God in that one respect. Just as the serpent said.
Genesis 3:5
For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:7
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Genesis 3:22
Then the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil...
Read it in context if you doubt me. It’s easy enough.
Or are you going to reject the content because you suspect my motive in accurately reporting it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1208 by jaywill, posted 09-05-2018 7:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1218 of 1748 (839290)
09-06-2018 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1208 by jaywill
09-05-2018 7:45 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
You're overlooking the fact that the MOST insidious effective way of lying is to include in the lie some amount of what is true.
That hardly applies in this case. And I note that you do not produce an example.
quote:
Sure Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil. What he did not get, because he is now united to Satan - is the power to carry out the good that he knows or the power to resist the evil that he now knows.
That is not in the story at all. Indeed, Adam and Eve are able to make clothing of a sort, and their limitations in that respect are hardly due to being united to Satan.
quote:
In reach for autonomy rather than dependence on his Creator he became united with God's enemy. Now he must die
That isn’t in the story either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1208 by jaywill, posted 09-05-2018 7:45 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 3:44 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 1224 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 4:03 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 1226 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 4:26 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1248 of 1748 (839326)
09-06-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1223 by jaywill
09-06-2018 3:44 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Provide an example?
You are reading the example at Genesis 3:1-5
But that isn’t an example. There’s no lie there at all.
quote:
Embedded Lie - You will not surely die.
Which is quite true. Bit from the fact that the fruit is not a poison as Eve apparently feared and because at that point she could still have eaten from the Tree if Life and lived forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1223 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 3:44 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1267 by jaywill, posted 09-07-2018 12:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1250 of 1748 (839329)
09-06-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1224 by jaywill
09-06-2018 4:03 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
The clothing they made at first was inadaquate. Fig leaves. God slew an animal in order to properly cloth them.
Its significant.
It certainly proves you wrong. They were able to work at doing right andonly their human limitations made their attemp inferior to God’s (and if God couldn’t do better than two ignorant humans who had never made a stitch of clothing in their lives it would be a poor show indeed)
quote:
That's pretty naive that you count making cloths proved they were A Okay from then on.
Of course I didn’t say that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 4:03 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1253 of 1748 (839332)
09-06-2018 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1226 by jaywill
09-06-2018 4:26 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
It isn't?
It isn’t.
quote:
This is the kind of folly that happens when an Atheist assumes to come along side a believer to ... "help" ... him understand the Bible.
Oh it’s not about helping you, it’s about countering your lies.
quote:
Adam and Eve's fall at temptation was to become autonomous and independent from God
It’s not really there, though, is it ? Eve thought the fruit was good to eat and wanted the understanding it brought but that is hardly wanting to be apart from God.
And I note you didn’t bother to quote anything about uniting with God’s enemy. Indeed man only had to die because God was afraid of Man attaining immortality as well (3:22-4)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by jaywill, posted 09-06-2018 4:26 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1268 of 1748 (839377)
09-07-2018 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1267 by jaywill
09-07-2018 12:14 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
Literally the translation - ... you will surely die is more like - Dying you will die.
The serpent saying You will not surely die. was a lie.
It amounts also to "NOT dying you will die."
Relying on literal translations of idioms is hardly a sensible way to understand them.
quote:
He surely died.
Dying he died as God had warned.
That death did not occur on the day he ate the fruit so it is certainly not as God warned. Nor was it sure before his exile from the Garden as I have already pointed out.
quote:
There is no reason given for them to die apart from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Apart from being unable to eat from the Tree of Life, which would have let them live forever. Moreover the story gives no reason to think that they were immortal before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
quote:
You argue about potentiality - She could still have eaten of the Tree of Life and lived forever. What happened ?
No, I argue about certainty. It was not certain that Eve would die when the serpent spoke, even if she ate the fruit. Therefore it was false to say that she would surely die.
quote:
Whose word turned out to be TRUE - God's or the serpent's ?
God's word turned out to happen.
The serpent LIED.
The serpent’s of course. Adam and Eve’s death was not certain until God exiled them, which had not happened when the Serpent spoke. And neither Adam or Eve literally died the day that they ate the fruit.
quote:
And you're lying to yourself to champion the serpent as the agent of truth there.
I understand. You have to lie about me because I refuse to believe my lies. You phony Christians are all alike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by jaywill, posted 09-07-2018 12:14 PM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1328 of 1748 (839529)
09-10-2018 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1326 by jaywill
09-09-2018 7:38 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
You observed that no such person as Jesus of Nazareth ever lived though we have more reason to hold he lived then we do that Alexander the Great lived or surely as much that Julius Caesar lived
That is certainly not true. Both Alexander and Julius Caesar had massive impact in life and left far more evidence (which is certainly not limited to written evidence). Jesus was an obscure figure who left little trace in the events of the time.
Christian apologists, sadly, have little regard for the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1326 by jaywill, posted 09-09-2018 7:38 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1329 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 1:27 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1330 of 1748 (839531)
09-10-2018 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1329 by jaywill
09-10-2018 1:27 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
quote:
You have here over 14,300 posts. How many posts do you have on this Forum or on any other, in which you argued / debated about Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar ?
I have very few arguing about Jesus either.
But what impact did Jesus have in life that compares to Alexander’s conquest of the Persian Empire ? Caesar’s impact was not so great as that, but he was deeply involved in Roman politics, conquered Gaul and brought about the end of the Republic.
Simply talking about the impact of Christianity today is an evasion of the point. In life Jesus was a briefly faddish preacher with perhaps a few hundred followers. You should accept that because how else to explain the poverty of the record ? We have nothing written about him while he lived.
quote:
Don't you think you have given undue attention to disputing the impact on your life of Christ, if Christ is merely fictional compared to those men ?
I was neither claiming that Jesus was fictitious nor talking about anyone’s influence on my life. Therefore the question is quite absurd. The question is the matter of historical evidence.
quote:
In the wee hours of the night, whose influence do you contemplate more, that of Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar or Christ ?
None of them.
quote:
I think you contemplate the words of Jesus and what they may mean to you more than the lives of Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar.
You are wrong. But to add a point relevant to historical evidence we have Caesar’s words in his own writings. Jesus left none. All we have are words attributed to him, decades after he died, themselves translations, since Jesus would have spoken Aramaic, not the Greek of the New Testament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1329 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 1:27 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1333 of 1748 (839535)
09-10-2018 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1332 by jaywill
09-10-2018 2:31 AM


quote:
You wrote here about 234 posts dealing with such things as Christ's discourse in Matthew 24.
And many of those posts do not deal with words attributed to Jesus. As you certainly ought to know.
quote:
If His impact is roughly less than, or certainly not more than the impact of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great can you show me where you voiced as much concern for their influence on things you feel need discussion?
Your continued attempts to change the subject prove that you know I’m right. Why not have the honesty to admit it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by jaywill, posted 09-10-2018 2:31 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 1504 of 1748 (840198)
09-24-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1498 by Faith
09-24-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
The fig tree couldn’t offer fruit because it wasn’t the right time of the year. Why get angry at the tree for that ? It’s not the tree’s fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1498 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 4:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1505 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 10:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1506 of 1748 (840204)
09-25-2018 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1505 by Faith
09-24-2018 10:05 PM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
quote:
The main explanation given for why Jesus would have expected fruit on the fig tree even though it wasn't the right season is that fruit appears before the leaves on those trees and they saw the leaves from a distance.
Figs don’t have fruit before late May, so that is highly implausible.
Even if it was true it wouldn’t be a reason to blame the tree.
quote:
But I don't care what the explanation is. If everybody here has to keep finding fault go ahead and keep finding fault, it's your loss. I know the Bible is God's word, and I know Jesus is never unrighteously angry and never does anything wrong, so I know it makes sense even if I don't understand how, and there are many things I won't understand simply because I'm not personally familiar with the culture and the times. Nevertheless good teachers include that information in their preaching so one learns a lot of it anyway.
Well you just go on following your false teachers and rejecting the Bible in favour of your own opinions since you like it so much. That’s nobody’s loss but yours.
quote:
And I know from painful experience here that it doesn't matter what good information I provide on any subject it will be trashed and do you no good anyway.
Falsehoods do not qualify as good information no matter how much you like them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1505 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 10:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1507 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 12:39 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1508 of 1748 (840206)
09-25-2018 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1507 by Faith
09-25-2018 12:39 AM


Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
quote:
"Blaming the tree" was just a teaching method
A pretty destructive teaching method. Especially when the problem was his own unrealistic expectations.
quote:
Yes I will go on believing the truth and feeling sorry for those who refuse to believe it.
You complain because your assertions are shown to be false, and then you boast about believing the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1507 by Faith, posted 09-25-2018 12:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1555 of 1748 (840300)
09-26-2018 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1553 by Phat
09-26-2018 2:35 PM


Re: Is There Consensus On Who Are Goats And Who Are Sheep?
The biggest objection to be raised against this point is that there is no third group present. There is nobody so poor as to be excluded, nor any separate group to be identified as these - whether qualified with My brethren (as in verse 40) or not (verse 45).
The preceding Parable of the Talents has also told us that those who do nothing with what they are entrusted with will be cast into the outer darkness
In Matthew 23:8 Jesus tells everyone listening to him that they are all brothers. The disciples and the assembled crowd (23:1)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1553 by Phat, posted 09-26-2018 2:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1643 of 1748 (848404)
02-04-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1636 by Phat
02-04-2019 7:52 AM


Re: Origins Of Reality
If you think that English words somehow exist independently of humans try reading this
And that is still English. Just very old English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1636 by Phat, posted 02-04-2019 7:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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