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Author | Topic: The Atheist Experience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Recently, as reflected in links within a few of my posts, I have been watching The Atheist Experience television broadcast on YouTube and also watching some of the debates between the atheists and the Christian apologists and philosophers. I want this topic to focus on logic, reason, reality, and definition of arguments based on words.
I'm going to start out by quoting a few of the comments which I read following this hour-long debate on YouTube titled Matt Dillahunty, Chris DiCarlo vs Mike Horner, P Chamberlain - Does God Exist - 2012. This is a compilation of many comments regarding the first quote:
quote: Has anyone watched this show? Comments??Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Diomedes writes: Also, if you are interested, one of the more interesting debates that Matt Dillahunty participated in was the one where he debated Matt Slick, a known Christian philosopher. The debate is also available and I encourage anyone to view it. It is handled respectfully and professionally and I applaud both Matt's for how it was handled. Is Secular Humanism superior to Christianity? Thanks for introducing me to that video! It was certainly an interesting debate and I will have to watch it again in order to fully understand and grasp the arguments. The audience participation was nice also! To his credit, Slick holds his own though he also brags a bit about his credentials..While Dillahunty is to be respected for his logic and presentation. Tentatively I have concluded that we humans are products of our life experiences. In my belief, God has surely foreknown that humans would be divisive and that not everyone would someday magically agree on a worldview. The evidence is in Christianity itself and on how there are so many denominations...nevermind Islam vs Christianity or Christianity vs Secular Humanism or Believer vs Atheist. The point is that there is and likely always will be different beliefs. Personally, I believe that knowing God through Jesus Christ is a worthy goal. My opponents rightly challenge me to explain how this is possible and why it is necessary for their particular subgroup. This is the heart of the issue: The reason people are in their subgroups is that they feel accepted and respected within that particular group! I'm also reading some of the comments below the video itself. I am studying other arguments by other humans as a key to forming my own conclusions on the verdict if in fact there even is one and needs to be one. Right now I am considering between two beliefs:
or Mind you I have already committed to the first premise. I believe that Jesus is alive this moment, is aware of our online conversations as well as a quadrillion other events and that through knowing Him I am being transformed and am willfully working as well to become a better person. And I'm not through with you yet, Tangle...though you seem to have encapsulated the debate briefly, the very fact that you hang around mandates that I continue to question you. Edited by Phat, : TitleChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: And yet you will need an assistant to deal with me, mister! I'm not through with you yet either! Though you annoy me a bit by refusing to watch my videos and insisting that I present my arguments in written form---it takes more effort yet allows me to improve upon them in the process. I guess I can't get anyone to do my legwork for me---not even Jesus! I suspect that most atheists are not as interested in atheism as you are.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Nope. One eats an apple or bakes a pie with it or splits it with an arrow. maybe they should have thrown it at the snake to shoo that critter away!
Hammers are good for hard objects. Maybe Occam should have used a hammer rather than a razor. It is a good debate, though. Watch a video once in a while....unless you think you already know the arguments. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Thats your problem. You reject things that you determine that you don't need. You may stand at the altar waiting forever for evidence. My question is why must we reject the premise? This isnt a simple logic or science problem. Without proof it must be rejected. Its emotional and personal....but maybe I'm the only one desiring marriage...you already have your squeeze! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Once I watch the debate a few more times I may finally form an opinion or belief with which to answer your question.
Tentatively I think that Christianity is superior in that we gain a relationship. Though one could argue that with secular humanism you gain many relationships. Out Of Many, One.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
When I referred to your squeeze, I meant your wife...I'm assuming you are married. For me, a woman...or a man, for that matter...simply is no replacement for knowing God...whereas you advocate simply living a good life, relaxing, going fishing and accepting the reality that you accept, thanks to evidence. My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence. You obviously have been unimpressed with my (or any other) explanation, so stick around and help us get better at arguing our position.
Basically, my position is that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ. You counter this with the challenge to provide evidence that either is true. You further insist that the likely reason you rejected these claims earlier in life was that the stuff you(I) believe in is utterly daft. Which is a clear choice, by the way. You choose to require evidence for everything you accept. My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.
Perhaps I do waste too much time in these arguments, but I feel that they sharpen my perspective. The church tells me to quit wasting time watching videos by atheists such as Matt Dillahunty, but it is inescapably within my nature. If I had simply spent the last years at a Christian Forum, I would have learned the belief and dogma quite well..(though I know it already) but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think...which for some reason I feel compelled to learn.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it
I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself. Here is the debate I watched:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Taq writes: You bring up a valid point. For me, one question I had was how much I should trust my internal experience as opposed to how much I should question it. I tend to be biased at trusting my gut rather than allowing myself to critically examine and question what I have experienced. The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural? For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.The basic conclusion of the theist begins at 1:08:55. Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
one could argue, however, that your sense of duty towards conscience is itself a belief
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Some people wouldn't do so much as tie their shoes without evidence.
For me, mindfulness, personal growth, and increased patience and wisdom are all the "evidence" I need.... Granted I would rant against organized religion nearly as loudly as I would rant against new age humanism.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
what would you say *is* concrete evidence for those perceptions? I trust what I have learned as well as verify it through my own experience. I dont need a scientific paper to verify that I'm being mindful.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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As we attempt to finetune our definitions for the sake of our peanut gallery:
Diomedes writes:
Could a secular humanist then also be a Christian? We have never really nailed down a concrete definition as to what a Christian is or *should* be....
... atheism is merely a response to a claim. Secular humanism is a a philosophical stance that focuses on the value and agency of human beings. Taq writes: For me, at least, something doesn't become true simply because I desire it to be true. Skeptics/Atheists tend to look for objective truths which are truths independent of our wishes, hopes, and opinions.I guess it boils down to faith. Indeed. To me, many atheists are simply more skeptical and see no reason to even consider a truth claim without enough evidence to arouse their curiousity. Many Christians, on the other hand, became Christians because they felt as if they needed a support...a validation and affirmation of who they were...and they trusted their friends in church and then took a metaphorical plunge...throwing away their need for objective verification and validation. The jury is still out on whether this really changed them. For me at least, it did. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The question is how do YOU know?
I trust my intuition. You don't trust yours and need science to give you a reason to move forward.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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