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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 283 (839214)
09-05-2018 11:46 AM


Recently, as reflected in links within a few of my posts, I have been watching The Atheist Experience television broadcast on YouTube and also watching some of the debates between the atheists and the Christian apologists and philosophers. I want this topic to focus on logic, reason, reality, and definition of arguments based on words.
I'm going to start out by quoting a few of the comments which I read following this hour-long debate on YouTube titled Matt Dillahunty, Chris DiCarlo vs Mike Horner, P Chamberlain - Does God Exist - 2012. This is a compilation of many comments regarding the first quote:
quote:
  • Atheism isn't a claim, it's a refute of many claims
  • Actually, it's rejection - not refutation. An atheist doesn't have to refute any god claims, just reject them all.
  • I hate to nitpick, but atheism is a rejection of the claims not a refutation of them.
  • It can be both. Depends on that person's stance and whether or not he's able to defend a burden of proof properly. It's kinda hard to refute and defend something that's a negative/unfalsifiable. Hence atheism is really just a lack of belief at it's core. How much further it's taken after that is up to the person.
  • Atheism is simply A LACK OF BELIEF. One doesn't need evidence to not believe something. Just the opposite in fact. One needs evidence TO believe something. (at least in order to be justified in that belief) The default position is nonbelief until evidence is provided, rather than be irrational and gullible by believing everything until given reason NOT to believe it- which is known as faith. Got it now ? Good. Glad I could be the one to educate you. Good luck and goodbye.
    And perhaps the funniest quote:
  • Philosophers talk about stuff
    Scientists DO stuff
    Theists make up stuff
  • Has anyone watched this show? Comments??

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 11:55 AM Phat has replied
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2018 11:58 AM Phat has replied
     Message 4 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2018 11:04 AM Phat has replied
     Message 18 by Taq, posted 09-10-2018 4:51 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 5 of 283 (839553)
    09-10-2018 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Diomedes
    09-10-2018 11:04 AM


    The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Diomedes writes:
    Also, if you are interested, one of the more interesting debates that Matt Dillahunty participated in was the one where he debated Matt Slick, a known Christian philosopher. The debate is also available and I encourage anyone to view it. It is handled respectfully and professionally and I applaud both Matt's for how it was handled.
    Is Secular Humanism superior to Christianity?
    Thanks for introducing me to that video! It was certainly an interesting debate and I will have to watch it again in order to fully understand and grasp the arguments. The audience participation was nice also! To his credit, Slick holds his own though he also brags a bit about his credentials..While Dillahunty is to be respected for his logic and presentation. Tentatively I have concluded that we humans are products of our life experiences. In my belief, God has surely foreknown that humans would be divisive and that not everyone would someday magically agree on a worldview. The evidence is in Christianity itself and on how there are so many denominations...nevermind Islam vs Christianity or Christianity vs Secular Humanism or Believer vs Atheist. The point is that there is and likely always will be different beliefs. Personally, I believe that knowing God through Jesus Christ is a worthy goal. My opponents rightly challenge me to explain how this is possible and why it is necessary for their particular subgroup. This is the heart of the issue: The reason people are in their subgroups is that they feel accepted and respected within that particular group!
    I'm also reading some of the comments below the video itself. I am studying other arguments by other humans as a key to forming my own conclusions on the verdict if in fact there even is one and needs to be one. Right now I am considering between two beliefs:
  • That Knowing God and Jesus is necessary
    or
  • That it is irrelevant whether or not I know and believe that Jesus Christ died to pay for my sins once and for all.
    Mind you I have already committed to the first premise. I believe that Jesus is alive this moment, is aware of our online conversations as well as a quadrillion other events and that through knowing Him I am being transformed and am willfully working as well to become a better person.
    And I'm not through with you yet, Tangle...though you seem to have encapsulated the debate briefly, the very fact that you hang around mandates that I continue to question you.
    Edited by Phat, : Title

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2018 11:04 AM Diomedes has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:05 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 7 of 283 (839557)
    09-10-2018 1:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
    09-05-2018 11:55 AM


    Are Atheists Not Interested?
    ringo writes:
    I suspect that most atheists are not as interested in atheism as you are.
    And yet you will need an assistant to deal with me, mister! I'm not through with you yet either! Though you annoy me a bit by refusing to watch my videos and insisting that I present my arguments in written form---it takes more effort yet allows me to improve upon them in the process. I guess I can't get anyone to do my legwork for me---not even Jesus!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 11:55 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 8 of 283 (839558)
    09-10-2018 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:05 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Nope. One eats an apple or bakes a pie with it or splits it with an arrow. maybe they should have thrown it at the snake to shoo that critter away!
    Hammers are good for hard objects. Maybe Occam should have used a hammer rather than a razor.
    It is a good debate, though. Watch a video once in a while....unless you think you already know the arguments.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:05 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 9 of 283 (839560)
    09-10-2018 1:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
    09-05-2018 11:58 AM


    In Brief
    Tangle writes:
    Without proof it must be rejected.
    Thats your problem. You reject things that you determine that you don't need. You may stand at the altar waiting forever for evidence. My question is why must we reject the premise? This isnt a simple logic or science problem.
    Its emotional and personal....but maybe I'm the only one desiring marriage...you already have your squeeze!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2018 11:58 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:12 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 11 of 283 (839562)
    09-10-2018 1:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:15 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Once I watch the debate a few more times I may finally form an opinion or belief with which to answer your question.
    Tentatively I think that Christianity is superior in that we gain a relationship.
    Though one could argue that with secular humanism you gain many relationships.
    Out Of Many, One.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:15 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 16 of 283 (839570)
    09-10-2018 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
    09-10-2018 3:12 PM


    Re: In Brief
    When I referred to your squeeze, I meant your wife...I'm assuming you are married. For me, a woman...or a man, for that matter...simply is no replacement for knowing God...whereas you advocate simply living a good life, relaxing, going fishing and accepting the reality that you accept, thanks to evidence. My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence. You obviously have been unimpressed with my (or any other) explanation, so stick around and help us get better at arguing our position.
    Basically, my position is that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ. You counter this with the challenge to provide evidence that either is true. You further insist that the likely reason you rejected these claims earlier in life was that the stuff you(I) believe in is utterly daft. Which is a clear choice, by the way. You choose to require evidence for everything you accept. My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:12 PM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 17 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:58 PM Phat has replied
     Message 19 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-10-2018 5:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 23 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 9:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 24 of 283 (839610)
    09-11-2018 10:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by Diomedes
    09-11-2018 9:48 AM


    Re: In Brief
    The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.
    Perhaps I do waste too much time in these arguments, but I feel that they sharpen my perspective. The church tells me to quit wasting time watching videos by atheists such as Matt Dillahunty, but it is inescapably within my nature. If I had simply spent the last years at a Christian Forum, I would have learned the belief and dogma quite well..(though I know it already) but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think...which for some reason I feel compelled to learn.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 9:48 AM Diomedes has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2018 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 26 by Diomedes, posted 09-11-2018 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 27 by jar, posted 09-11-2018 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 29 by Taq, posted 09-11-2018 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 33 of 283 (839665)
    09-12-2018 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
    09-12-2018 6:34 AM


    Re: In Brief
    Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it
    I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself.
    Here is the debate I watched:

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-12-2018 6:34 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-12-2018 4:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 36 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:13 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 37 of 283 (839688)
    09-13-2018 8:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
    09-12-2018 6:13 PM


    Re: In Brief
    Taq writes:
    The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural?
    For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.
    You bring up a valid point. For me, one question I had was how much I should trust my internal experience as opposed to how much I should question it. I tend to be biased at trusting my gut rather than allowing myself to critically examine and question what I have experienced.
    The basic conclusion of the theist begins at 1:08:55.
    Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Taq, posted 09-12-2018 6:13 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Taq, posted 09-13-2018 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 46 of 283 (839761)
    09-14-2018 8:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
    09-14-2018 11:40 AM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    one could argue, however, that your sense of duty towards conscience is itself a belief

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 11:40 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 52 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 11:37 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 54 of 283 (839774)
    09-15-2018 12:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
    09-15-2018 11:39 AM


    Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
    Some people wouldn't do so much as tie their shoes without evidence.
    For me, mindfulness, personal growth, and increased patience and wisdom are all the "evidence" I need....
    Granted I would rant against organized religion nearly as loudly as I would rant against new age humanism.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 11:39 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 12:42 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 56 of 283 (839776)
    09-15-2018 1:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
    09-15-2018 12:42 PM


    Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
    what would you say *is* concrete evidence for those perceptions? I trust what I have learned as well as verify it through my own experience. I dont need a scientific paper to verify that I'm being mindful.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 12:42 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 1:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    (1)
    Message 59 of 283 (839779)
    09-15-2018 5:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 45 by Taq
    09-14-2018 4:39 PM


    Fine Tuning Definitions For Our Loyal Peanut Gallery
    As we attempt to finetune our definitions for the sake of our peanut gallery:
    Diomedes writes:
    ... atheism is merely a response to a claim. Secular humanism is a a philosophical stance that focuses on the value and agency of human beings.
    Could a secular humanist then also be a Christian? We have never really nailed down a concrete definition as to what a Christian is or *should* be....
    Taq writes:
    For me, at least, something doesn't become true simply because I desire it to be true. Skeptics/Atheists tend to look for objective truths which are truths independent of our wishes, hopes, and opinions.
    I guess it boils down to faith.
    Indeed. To me, many atheists are simply more skeptical and see no reason to even consider a truth claim without enough evidence to arouse their curiousity. Many Christians, on the other hand, became Christians because they felt as if they needed a support...a validation and affirmation of who they were...and they trusted their friends in church and then took a metaphorical plunge...throwing away their need for objective verification and validation.
    The jury is still out on whether this really changed them. For me at least, it did.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by Taq, posted 09-14-2018 4:39 PM Taq has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 283 (839780)
    09-15-2018 5:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
    09-15-2018 1:09 PM


    Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
    The question is how do YOU know?
    I trust my intuition. You don't trust yours and need science to give you a reason to move forward.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 1:09 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 2:11 PM Phat has replied

      
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