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Author Topic:   Christianity and the End Times
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1353 of 1748 (839670)
09-12-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1352 by Faith
09-12-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
While I agree that the Bible is not fictional nor simply made up, I think we have no mandate to judge what others ability is or is not. Coming across so authoritarian that way simply pushes them farther away from understanding our point of view and makes us look bad. Personally, I believe in the old adage that one can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Granted I have stopped trying to win any sort of argument.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1352 by Faith, posted 09-12-2018 4:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1354 by Faith, posted 09-12-2018 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1359 of 1748 (839683)
09-13-2018 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1358 by jar
09-12-2018 7:36 PM


Basic Forum Decency
jar writes:
Sorry but I am not as willfully ignorant as you seem to be.
The mirrors exist.
The mirrors are on the moon.
The mirrors appeared on the moon at the time of the specific flights.
There is no explanation of how the mirrors got on the moon in those specific locations except that humans put them there at those specific times.
The issue is settled. Man went to the moon not just once but repeatedly.
And it still has absolutely nothing to do with the topic except for the fact it is yet another conclusive piece of evidence that you are incapable of making evidence-based or reality-based decisions and so you must resort to carny tricks and snake oil spiels.
Basic Forum Guidelines decency prohibits this type of personal attack. You do it to Faith, jaywill, and myself time after time. Are you not intelligent enough (or Christian enough) to argue the position and not the person? Jaywill has argued his case for the doubt regarding honesty between government and people. You evidently trust the government but mistrust the Biblical Christians. We get it. Stop hammering home your personal opinions of us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1358 by jar, posted 09-12-2018 7:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1365 by jar, posted 09-14-2018 5:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1360 of 1748 (839684)
09-13-2018 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1356 by jar
09-12-2018 5:19 PM


Re: Back to the End Times
jar writes:
...and what the hell does any of that have to do with the topic?
Because you believe that the Bible is entirely the product of man and that there is no evidence that it mentions any end times prophecies except those manufactured by Biblical Christians. We believe (though cannot prove) that the Bible is authored by God through human authors. Further, we argue that the deception, carny sideshow and misdirection is being done by certain elements within government to the public-at-large. It is an extraordinary claim without solid evidence. You provided counter-evidence that the mirrors exist. It is quite enough for you to make your case that the moon landing happened without resorting to personal attacks. Let us all refrain from sinking to that level.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1356 by jar, posted 09-12-2018 5:19 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1361 of 1748 (839685)
09-13-2018 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1347 by jaywill
09-11-2018 7:47 PM


Its all about behavior
jaywill writes:
I keep abreast of both sides of the debate.
Its not as important as eternal salvation
As long as I am scolding evryone I may as well include you. To your credit, your Bible Studies are impressive due to the fact that you take so much time making your case and highlighting the relevant scriptures. This behavior is in stark conrast to some of how you come across hammering it out with jar. I get it. We all are human and we do get frustrated in our debates. I get on jar, particularly because he claims so adamantly to be a charter member of a "club Christian" yet shoots himself in the foot with his scathing personal remarks towards others. I don't expect the same behavior from you and urge you to give no place to the enemy in these discussions.
You have my full permission to chastise me whenever I exhibit the more carnal aspects of human nature. Iron sharpens iron. Be encouraged.
And keep in mind that while everyone is interpreting scriptures and waiting on God to fulfill the destiny, God may well be waiting for us to become sanctified enough to care about.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1347 by jaywill, posted 09-11-2018 7:47 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1362 by jaywill, posted 09-13-2018 9:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1364 of 1748 (839691)
09-13-2018 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1363 by jaywill
09-13-2018 9:19 AM


Re: Back to the End Times
I talked to my friend. He says the idea is nonsense. He helped build, design, and test the Mars Global Surveyor...so he is qualified to have an opinion.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1363 by jaywill, posted 09-13-2018 9:19 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1368 of 1748 (839798)
09-16-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1367 by jar
09-16-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Basic Forum Decency
I KNOW I can be deceived and that the most likely source of deception is myself and so look for actual evidence and reality.
Is there any chance that reality itself could be deceptive? I suppose you will retort that we could never know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by jar, posted 09-16-2018 11:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1369 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 2:20 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1375 by jar, posted 09-17-2018 6:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1370 of 1748 (839805)
09-16-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1369 by ringo
09-16-2018 2:20 PM


Skeptics and Cryptics
I agree that we need to collaborate. My question is why must it be skeptically evidence-based? If I walk into a community of believers, and they all confirm the same message, must it be wrong without concrete evidence? Granted I must be wary of drinking any kool-aid, but if they all seem to gain strength from the belief, and if they are otherwise rationally minded people, why must I shun them in favor of the gang of secular humanists at the park or at the library? Surely there is room in this world for atheists who are skeptical of anything or anyone other than humanity itself and evidence-based thinking...but just as surely there is room for faith communities.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1369 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1371 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 3:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1372 of 1748 (839810)
09-16-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1371 by ringo
09-16-2018 3:38 PM


Re: Skeptics and Cryptics
ringo writes:
You have one community with one message but across the street there's another community with a different message. How can you evaluate the different messages?
I evaluate the messengers and not simply the messages. If one community feeds me, talks openly and honestly with me, and does not attempt to indoctrinate me (at least obviously) then I will align with them. I think it all boils down to which people one feels most comfortable with. Jesus never hung out with Temple folk. He hung with the street people kinda like you do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1371 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 3:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1374 of 1748 (839813)
09-16-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by ringo
09-16-2018 4:01 PM


Re: Skeptics and Cryptics
Actually, you have a good point. I'll have to ponder this one a bit.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by ringo, posted 09-16-2018 4:01 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1384 of 1748 (839885)
09-17-2018 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1382 by Capt Stormfield
09-17-2018 4:26 PM


Wellsprings
  • If one believes that humans are basically bad and/or hopeless without God, one would then look for bad behavior or conspiracy among humans which would need fighting against. One would always be on guard against an enemy in some form or another.
  • If one believes that humans are basically good by nature and did not require a God to guide them, one would trust most media in the free world at least and one would have no reason to doubt moon landings, global warming, or humanist motives.
    My jury is still out. I am a moderate in regards to these two extremes...I don't trust evidence alone, but I also realize that God is not going to magically rescue me.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1382 by Capt Stormfield, posted 09-17-2018 4:26 PM Capt Stormfield has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1385 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 5:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1391 by ringo, posted 09-18-2018 11:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1396 of 1748 (839931)
    09-19-2018 10:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1395 by jar
    09-19-2018 9:24 AM


    Re: Basic Forum Decency
    jar writes:
    jaywill's posts still have no bearing on reality or the fact that man went to the moon, or the topic of the thread and are just more of his attempts to palm the pea, con the rubes, sell his snake oil, move the goal posts and change the subject.
    At best, you could argue that CCoI members often have a disconnect from reality and are gullible in regards to conspiracy tales and what you would call made up religion...but I find no evidence that jaywill or any of us palm any pea nor con any rube. We do often change the subject because we seek to frame the issue one way while you insist on framing it another. You market Christianity the way you feel it should be and we market it the way we feel it should be.
    I swear that you sometimes sound like a broken record!
    Let's drop this moon hoax stuff and get back to the end times as marketed.
    PaulK, opening post writes:
    The End is Coming Soon is quite a cliche. There have been numerous occasions in the past where Christians have believed that the end times are almost upon us. And - certainly today - there is no shortage of people prepared to profit from it. We even see daft ideas like bar-codes being the Mark of the Beast (they aren’t).
    But what does the Bible really say? You won’t find out from those selling an imminent apocalypse.
    I intend to survey the major end-time predictions and see if they really do match the present situation.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1395 by jar, posted 09-19-2018 9:24 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1397 by jar, posted 09-19-2018 1:08 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 1398 by ringo, posted 09-20-2018 1:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1408 of 1748 (840013)
    09-21-2018 5:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 1407 by jaywill
    09-21-2018 4:45 PM


    Re: Basic Forum Decency
    My take on it is this:
  • My friend works on spacecraft. He is literally there when the launches occur, and he knows the ins and outs of the mechanics and logistics of any and all equipment. He basically reassured me that there is no hoax...he argues with flat-earthers all the time and is amazed at the cognitive dissonance and similarities between various conspiracy theorists. I may talk him into making a post here in this thread...but one explanation that I think is relevant to this discussion is what we are initially told about the video and the lack of sound...keep in mind that whoever is asserting a conspiracy is telling us what the video shows and what it must mean. We have no reason otherwise to even doubt these events.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1407 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2018 4:45 PM jaywill has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1410 by Faith, posted 09-21-2018 9:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1447 of 1748 (840124)
    09-24-2018 7:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 1444 by Faith
    09-24-2018 7:23 AM


    Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
    jar writes:
    The topic is Christianity and the End Times.
    The reality is that ALL and EVERY Biblical End Times Prophecy has failed.
    Faith writes:
    It's a bit oblique but we ARE talking about the end times: the ultimate goal of Christ's work in us, the point of it all, which won't be revealed until his second coming.
    jar has a weird outlook on all of this. He has even claimed that Jesus is (so far) a failed Messiah. Nevermind the actual motive for preaching such crap.
    Matthew makes it fairly plain:
    Matt 24:3-14 writes:
    3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
    4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
    9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
    Of course jar could argue that Jesus was wrong. But we could also argue that "many false prophets will appear and deceive many people" could actually refer to him.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1444 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 7:23 AM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1448 by jar, posted 09-24-2018 7:36 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 1467 by ringo, posted 09-24-2018 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1471 of 1748 (840160)
    09-24-2018 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 1469 by Faith
    09-24-2018 2:24 PM


    Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
    Keep in mind that he (jar) thinks that mainstream Christianity...even historically, has largely been a marketing con job. He has made up his own theology which, granted, has Biblical support, but his blatant dismissal of apologists and preachers alike has me wondering why he trusts so few people. I'm guessing that it is a combination of his Jewish influences in early childhood coupled with the Socratic wisdom of Episcopal school teachers who emphasized critical thinking and logic, reason and reality over historical apologetics.
    I have no quarrel with the basic message of Matthew 25, but I hardly think it is enough with which to base one's entire belief. ringo and Tangle, both atheists, seem to embrace it adamantly and can't figure out for the life of them why we don't value it more.
    Little do they know that I have likely helped as many people in my life as either of them and not simply to gain an eternal reward nor please some church. Granted I could always do more.
    My main beef with this Matthew 25 cult is that it can equally apply to atheists and secular humanists and is marketed as the basis for doing the best that one can do. Tangle loves the idea of it as it does not involve a necessary relationship with Jesus Christ nor a need to surrender ones free will to a higher power. He can go fishing with a clear conscience. ringo is a lifelong skeptic who nonetheless advocates Matthew 25 as the essence of the message.
    jar does have a point that the basic message he pushes...namely trying to do your best for others, admitting when you are wrong, and modifying your behavior to an innate sense of right and wrong...is a message for all people and not just Christians. I can't say that he is wrong---my main beef with him is his accusation that the Biblical Christians are conning people. We believe that He will meet Jesus someday, and we can only hope that jar fesses up to being a bit arrogant rather than laughing in the face of an omnipotant Creator.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1469 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 2:24 PM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1472 by ringo, posted 09-24-2018 3:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1482 of 1748 (840174)
    09-24-2018 3:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 1475 by Faith
    09-24-2018 3:25 PM


    Re: Coming back for the Reaping of Life
    They will point to what they embrace in the Bible and then turn around and discount what Paul says as marketing.
    Essentially they are marketing the idea that we don't need a relationship with God and that we are simply charged to do our best to help each other...precisely what a secular humanist would advocate.
    Of course, if original sin were simply a marketing con job they would have a point, but I see evidence that there is ongoing sin in the world and that humans and their socialist ideals will never overcome it by sheer will alone.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1475 by Faith, posted 09-24-2018 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

      
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