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Author | Topic: The Atheist Experience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I have a hard time grasping this idea. It sounds like "works-righteousness" or legalism, rather than salvation by faith. There are plenty of struggles in the Christian life, some of them due to misunderstanding it, some due to our own sin problems, some due to spiritual warfare with the satanic hordes, and some due to conflicts with the world with which we find ourselves increasingly at odds as we grow; and probably other causes I'm not thinking of. But I would think that once one has "tasted" God ("Oh taste as see that the Lord is good") nothing on earth could possibly compete. My point being that I found it to be a farce based on what I wanted to be real, but ultimately concluded was not. But if it means something to you, I by no means would try to convince you otherwise. If it provides meaning in your life then I wish you well."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I couldn't care less about "meaning." If it isn't true it's worthless, and of course I believe it to be true.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it
I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself. Here is the debate I watched:
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If it's true it's true, Phat, it's true for everybody, there is no such thing as truth for some but not others. There's also plenty of evidence: the Bible is evidence. Still, God has to open people's eyes.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Faith writes: And when atheists do get converted it's often when they've come to recognize that they were wrong about this. Atheists do convert to religions all of the time, and religious people deconvert to atheism all of the time. I really don't see how you can read anything into this.
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Phat writes: Of course how can we know something to be true? We can believe it, and in the case for Jesus, as an example, I say that I know He is alive and interacting with me and within me 100% but I cant present this as truth to others....its only truth for me...I cant insist that it must be true for others...the onus is on them to find truth as they desire it As an atheist, what you describe is something that goes against the basic skepticism that is part of my worldview. For me, at least, something doesn't become true simply because I desire it to be true. Skeptics/Atheists tend to look for objective truths which are truths independent of our wishes, hopes, and opinions. I guess it boils down to faith.
Phat writes: I watched a great atheist/christian debate. The Christian speaker had many anecdotes and evidence that was undeniably persuasive to me, for I too have experienced the supernatural...which he discusses. But Matt Dillahunty, the atheist, had a logical counterargument which I cant honestly say is wrong. I cant define truth for everyone. Only God can do that, and I cant represent God to others...I can only represent myself. The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural? For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Taq writes: You bring up a valid point. For me, one question I had was how much I should trust my internal experience as opposed to how much I should question it. I tend to be biased at trusting my gut rather than allowing myself to critically examine and question what I have experienced. The (rhetorical) question this atheist has is how you can know that you have experienced the supernatural? For the skeptical mind it is hard to differentiate between your mind fooling yourself and claims of supernatural interaction.The basic conclusion of the theist begins at 1:08:55. Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Phat writes: Perhaps I take a stand in faith on what I have experienced due in part to confirmation bias whereas...as you point out...a true skeptic would not embrace faith so easily. That is probably what separates the theist and atheist. For the purposes of this thread I don't think it necessary to say that one approach is better than the other. The main point is to understand what the differences are so we can understand each other a bit better.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2326 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Christianity had something of a start in time (though it heavily borrowed from previous Jewish sects and even mainstream "Judaism" itself). Christianity is a monolith today but the further back you go in time, you sees lots of diverse views (so diverse that the major doctrines today seem increasingly contradicted by the earlier communities).
Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots? When did it start? How much did it borrow from other movements? Are its followers a monolith today?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And when atheists do get converted it's often when they've come to recognize that they were wrong about this. Atheists do convert to religions all of the time, and religious people deconvert to atheism all of the time. I really don't see how you can read anything into this. What I said is true: when they convert it's often because they've come to recognize that the Bible is not man-made.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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LamarkNewAge writes: Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots? It's not a monolith and it has no roots. It's just a bunch of unorganised people who don't believe in god(s)
When did it start? when people started thinking for themselves
How much did it borrow from other movements? It's not a movement
Are its followers a monolith today? NoJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots? When did it start? How much did it borrow from other movements? Are its followers a monolith today? Atheism is just a response to a claim. i.e. Do you believe in a god or gods? In an of itself, it is nothing more than that. In the same way theism is a response to the same claim. But theism in an of itself does not have any specific tenets or concepts since it isn't a religion. Certain religions are theistic. Or polytheistic. And for that matter, there are some religions like buddhism that are atheistic. Whether someone is a theist or an atheist does not say anything about their specific belief system. For atheists like myself, the only reason that label even exists is I live in a society where religion has a large presence. But being an atheist doesn't in any way affect my worldview since it has no core tenets or philosophies. A better description of myself as it pertains to specific beliefs is that I am a secular humanist. Although deists can also be secular humanists. In short, atheism is merely a response to a claim. Secular humanism is a a philosophical stance that focuses on the value and agency of human beings. Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed typo
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
caffeine writes:
I suppose you could think of it as conscience without the supernatural mumbo-jumbo added. Unfortunately, religion also subtracts some of the conscience. Yes, isn't that exactly Secular Humanism is? It's a Christianity substitute for ex-Christians who miss Christianity.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: What I said is true: when they convert it's often because they've come to recognize that the Bible is not man-made. What I said is true as well. When christians convert to atheism they've come to recognize that the Bible is man-made. Besides, it says right in the Bible that it was written by humans. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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Taq Member Posts: 10044 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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LamarkNewAge writes: Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots? When did it start? How much did it borrow from other movements? Are its followers a monolith today? Atheism is as monolithic as not collecting stamps or not playing golf. It has the same roots as not believing in Bigfoot.
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