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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 71 of 138 (839223)
09-05-2018 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
09-05-2018 1:16 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


How does that address what I said? "The Fall" was not a historical event (nor was it a fall). The "one man" was not a historical personage. Romans refers to the metaphor in Genesis.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 73 of 138 (839225)
09-05-2018 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
09-05-2018 1:37 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

The one man is clearly presented as a historical personage which tells us that the passage in Genesis is historical and not a metaphor.


On the contrary, the talking snake should be your first clue. No talking snakes in history.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 1:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:18 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 75 of 138 (839272)
09-05-2018 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
09-05-2018 5:18 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Both a talking snake and a talking donkey in scripture though. Nothing is impossible with God.


But you said it was "presented" as history. Clearly it is not. History is never presented with talking snakes or talkimg donkeys. It is presented either as a miracle or as a metaphor or as a fairy tale.

Faith writes:

The man is a man and the story in Eden is historical.


The other problem with that is that there was never a time in history when there was only one man and one woman. It's biologically impossible. Therefore, it's another miracle or another metaphor or another fairy tale.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 77 by jar, posted 09-05-2018 5:52 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 78 of 138 (839275)
09-05-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-05-2018 5:50 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

However if you want to push me I'll say the account in Genesis is also presented as history, because it is.


Clearly it isn't. There are no talking snakes in history. There is no reasoning at all behind your empty claim.

Faith writes:

Just because you believe it's impossible doesn't give you a right to force your view on me as the truth to which I am to bow.


I'm not forcing anything on you. I'm pointing out your errors. Anybody else who's capable of reading can see that you're wrong.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 5:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 6:09 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 80 of 138 (839277)
09-05-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
09-05-2018 6:09 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

The snake talked. Get over it.


I know the snake talked. So did the Three Bears. It's a clue.

Faith writes:

Adam the first man brought sin into the world, while Jesus the last man paid our sin debt so we can be restored to God's favor.


Yes, that's a literary point being made. It's not a fact and it's not history.

Faith writes:

Paul believed the Genesis account, so did Jesus, so did all who wrote books of the Bible, so do all believers in Christ.


I know you believe they believed it. That has no bearing on whether or not it's true.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 6:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 6:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 82 of 138 (839314)
09-06-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
09-05-2018 6:43 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

The....Snake....TALKED. Really really truly TALKED. It is history, not fiction.


I know the snake talked. That's how we know it's fiction, the same as the three talking bears are fiction. If you know of any history that has talking animals, feel free to give examples.

Faith writes:

Sorry your imagination is so cramped you can't recognize real reality.


It isn't that my imagination is cramped. It's that I don't use my imagination to understand reality. I use evidence. Imagination is for watching Star Wars.

The evidence is that there never was a time when there was only one man and one woman. The evidence is that people have always suffered - there was no magic moment when it began.

Faith writes:

And yes it's true that Jesus believed Genesis to be true truth and real reality....


If He did, He was wrong.

Faith writes:

What iis SO difficult about the idea of a supernatural reality anyway?


I didn't say anything about supernatural reality. I'm talking about real reality, evidenced reality. If there is such a thing as supernatural reality, it isn't history.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 09-05-2018 6:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by frako, posted 09-06-2018 2:31 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 09-06-2018 6:33 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 89 of 138 (839344)
09-06-2018 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
09-06-2018 6:33 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

If Jesus is both man and God who died and came back to life that is supernatural and it is history.


There's no historical reason to think it happened, so it ain't history.

Faith writes:

The miracles of the Bible are all supernatural realities that occurred in history.


Supernatural and history are pretty much mutually exclusive. History pretty much has to be natural, with evidence. That's how we distinguish it from myth.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 09-06-2018 6:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 96 of 138 (839375)
09-07-2018 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
09-06-2018 11:54 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Today there are "near-death" experiences" which I think are satanically engineered but they do testify of a spiritual life beyond the merely physical.


Everything to do with an afterlife is satanically engineered - "Satan" being the part of our minds that tries to fools us into doing bad things.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 09-06-2018 11:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 109 of 138 (839550)
09-10-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-10-2018 7:22 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Faith writes:

Witness evidence is the only possible evidence for this sort of phenomena and there is lots of it.


A large amount of bad data doesn't add up to good evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 7:22 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-13-2018 9:33 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 111 of 138 (839739)
09-14-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-13-2018 9:33 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

I am myself a witness to unknown phenomena.


Me too.

Phat writes:

Granted I labeled it as supernatural...


You contradict yourself. If you're labelling it a supernatural, you're not labelling it as unknown. You're trying to reassure yourself that you do know.

Phat writes:

... there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


Isn't the pursuit of truth reason enough?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-13-2018 9:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-08-2018 7:35 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 113 of 138 (842865)
11-09-2018 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
11-08-2018 7:35 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

Critics would argue that more truth is found through witness testimony than in spite of it.


Idiots might argue that. What credible critics do you have in mind?

Phat writes:

There are many witnesses that affirm these things....


There are many witnesses of flying saucers and alien close encounters and probings and Loch Ness monsters and bigfeet and ghosts and conspiracies and... and... and... and.... Are they all credible?

Phat writes:

On the contrary, those few who write of evidence against these stories usually have an ax to grind...


Nonsense. Searching for the truth is not an axe.

Phat writes:

I don't trust them.


You should trust the evidence - and you shouldn't trust stories that are not based on evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 11-08-2018 7:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 4:01 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 115 of 138 (842921)
11-10-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
11-09-2018 4:01 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

You can't lump The Resurrection in with Loch Ness Monsters and Bigfoot.


Yes I can. In fact, there is better evidence for the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot than for the resurrection.

quoting "one standard answer", Phat writes:

"Eyewitness testimony of the resurrection, as recorded in the New Testament, is the basis of faith in Jesus as Christ."


Then there's no basis for faith in Jesus.

Phat writes:

And as I mentioned before, most witness testimonies are questionable. It's the ones that are not that we focus on.


We have no witnesses at all for the resurrection, neither questionable nor otherwise.

Phat writes:

Its almost as if you once stomped off from the church declaring that religion was full of it yet that you would accept only the duty of the message and needed no one to tell you what to do! That's a bit of an ax, one would think.


It's an axe that you've made up in your head.

Phat writes:

This whole pursuit of truth fallacy won't ever be conclusive!


Truth may not be conclusive but false is.

Phat writes:

Believers may never prove a case for Christ, but unbelievers will never have enough evidence against such a possibility either.


We don't need evidence against.

Phat writes:

The stories stand as they are, and the debate focuses on the authors and the motives of such authors.


What matters is whether the stories are true. If not, it doesn't really matter why the authors made them up. As Linus Van pelt once said, "Maybe they needed the money."

Phat writes:

Also look at known respected Bible Teachers such as Henrietta Mears. She surely read the book many times from cover to cover and had valid conclusions on the authorship of the book. No ax there.


Are you suggesting that she read the book with no pre-conceived notions on whether it was "true" or "false"? I don't believe that.

Phat writes:

Critics who attempt to trash her conclusions, in contrast, are hardly pristine seekers of truth...they spread discord and controversy among truth seekers.


Now you're just lashing out. You have no justification for attacking the motives of skeptics.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 11-09-2018 4:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:45 PM ringo has responded
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:12 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 118 of 138 (842974)
11-11-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
11-11-2018 1:45 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

I certainly question why they are skeptical...


Because skepticism is the correct approach to any question.

Phat writes:

... and also why they are usually so adamantly against Christians in general.


If it was some other religion throwing nonsense at us, then it would be met with the same skepticism.

Phat writes:

If, on the other hand, I only came to saw you as a contrarian obstructionist who likes clever arguments, I would feel that my lashing out was necessary to defend belief in general as being rational.


But belief isn't rational.

Phat writes:

Not in terms of the impact that each event has and had on people.


Impact is irrelevant. The Kardashians have hade a lot of impact; it doesn't mean they have any value.

Phat writes:

Henrietta Mears may well have had pre-conceived notions...not may people can claim to have original notions with no influence whatsoever...


The important thing is to throw out your pre-conceived notions when they're proven false, not prop them up with spit and spider webs.

Phat writes:

...but she impacted a lot of people for the better. Had she believed in BigFoot instead of Jesus, she would never have been heard of.


You don't know that. (By the way, I had never heard of her.)

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 1:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:28 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 119 of 138 (842977)
11-11-2018 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:12 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

You embraced His message...


I embraced THE message.

Phat writes:

You certainly have shown no evidence of arguing as persuasively for or against Big Foot or even Long John Silver.


YOU have shown no evidence of arguing for Jesus persuasively.

Phat writes:

What would your Jesus be doing today in the age of trump, War in Yemen, and EvC Forums?


A better question would be: What would YOU be doing if Jesus was here? Would you be refusing to His face to do what He said? Would you say He was poisoned by left-wing propaganda (far, far left)?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:31 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19079
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 122 of 138 (842984)
11-11-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
11-11-2018 2:28 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

The Resurrection obviously had impact and value.


Since it didn't happen, how could it have impact or value?

Phat writes:

Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection were meaningful for society-at-large.


The belief in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection has had an impact on society.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 11-11-2018 2:28 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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