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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(5)
Message 3 of 100 (839216)
09-05-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
09-05-2018 11:46 AM


Not seen the show but all that stuff has been done to death many times here already.

It's very simple, if someone makes a claim about something they have to show why it's true. Otherwise it can be rejected out of hand.

If the claim is mundane it can be accepted without testing. 'There's a blue chair in my bedroom' can be accepted because it's not exceptional and you trust the source. Before you check it out yourself, you can believe it. After you check you know it.

'There's a unicorn in my bedroom' requires absolute proof. It can't be accepted without objective confirmation. Without proof it must be rejected.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-05-2018 11:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2018 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 15 of 100 (839569)
09-10-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Thugpreacha
09-10-2018 1:12 PM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

Thats your problem.

I don't have a problem. I'm not agonising over this stuff, that'll be you.

You reject things that you determine that you don't need.

Oh Phat, what is it that makes you so dumb about this stuff? It doesn't matter how often this is explained you have to twist it into something you want to believe that has nothing to do with how it actually is.

I'm not rejecting stuff I don't need, it's that the stuff you believe in is utterly daft. Like you reject Father Christmas or Zeus. You seem to need to believe something, this is something. If you'd been born in Israel or Iraq you'd believe in something else.

You may stand at the altar waiting forever for evidence.

And what would be the problem with that?

My question is why must we reject the premise?

Because it isn't proven and the evidence is against it.

This isnt a simple logic or science problem.

Then why are you talking of premises?

Its emotional and personal....but maybe I'm the only one desiring marriage...you already have your squeeze!

You said it. You want all this garbage to be true no matter what, so you'll make it true for you.

I don't have a 'squeeze', not believing in something is not a replacement for belief. Think of it like you not believing in Vishnu.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2018 1:12 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(1)
Message 17 of 100 (839572)
09-10-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Thugpreacha
09-10-2018 3:22 PM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

For me, a woman...or a man, for that matter...simply is no replacement for knowing God

But you don't know god. And you can't know god. Quite apart from the fact that the thing you call god doesn't exist, there is no way you could know a supernatural being if it did.

My argument is that not all of reality can be explained through evidence.

That's not an argument, it's a statement of belief. What part of reality can't be explained through evidence?

You obviously have been unimpressed with my (or any other) explanation, so stick around and help us get better at arguing our position.

I've never heard an argument, all I've ever heard is what you believe.

Basically, my position is that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen exists and is knowable through Jesus Christ.

Yeh, I know. You keep telling us. That's as far as you get.

You counter this with the challenge to provide evidence that either is true.

Yeh, as explained, that's the way claims work. Those making them are required to prove them.

You further insist that the likely reason you rejected these claims earlier in life was that the stuff you(I) believe in is utterly daft. Which is a clear choice, by the way. You choose to require evidence for everything you accept.

Yup, I'm rational like that. But also as explained - you remember, blue chair in bedroom? - I don't need evidence to believe the mundane; just the crackpot crazy.

My evidence was subjective and internal. I can't expect you to use my evidence nor can I replicate it for others.

Maybe it would help if you stopped using the word 'evidence' when you're saying that things are subjective and impersonal it would help. That's not evidence of anything other than you personally believe something. Billions of people believe billions of dumb things, you don't believe most of them, but they do.

When I say things like that you just shrug, it doesn't seem to matter to you that what you believe has nothing to do with anything other that the time and place you where born. Just that little problem of yours, chance.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 8:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 22 of 100 (839605)
09-11-2018 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
09-10-2018 8:50 PM


Re: In Brief
Faith writes:

Scripture tells us that eternal life is knowing God, so if we have eternal life, meaning if we are saved we do know God. That's the whole point of being saved, to recover the communication with God that was lost at the Fall, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God and lost their spiritual connection with Him.

Scripture is man-made. Eternal life is a myth. The fall didn't happen. Adam and Eve never existed. The rapture is an invention. Your whole belief system is built on a childish myth. At least when you die you won't be disapointed to learn all this, you'll just be dead.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-10-2018 8:50 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 25 of 100 (839613)
09-11-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Thugpreacha
09-11-2018 10:04 AM


Re: In Brief
Phat writes:

The more that I think about it the more I realize that having a goal of getting everybody to believe in God is unrealistic.

Which god? Did you think it reasonable that a Hindu would change his mind, while you wouldn't?

but I quite possibly would have been unaware of how the atheists think

You consistently show that you still have no clue how atheists think. But I suppose you are at least aware of us now. I've met American believers that are stunned and terrified to hear that I'm an atheist. They literally ended the conversation and scurried away shocked. Weird and worrying people fundies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-11-2018 10:04 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 41 of 100 (839732)
09-14-2018 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by LamarkNewAge
09-13-2018 8:44 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LamarkNewAge writes:

Atheism might be a monolith but does it have any real roots?

It's not a monolith and it has no roots. It's just a bunch of unorganised people who don't believe in god(s)

When did it start?

when people started thinking for themselves

How much did it borrow from other movements?

It's not a movement

Are its followers a monolith today?

No


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-13-2018 8:44 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 50 of 100 (839768)
09-15-2018 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by LamarkNewAge
09-14-2018 10:41 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LNA writes:

I don't really understand the distinction between "Agnostic" beliefs toward God and the description of "Atheistic" membership.

The only difference between an atheist and an agnostic is intellectual honesty. People either believe in god (or little green men) or they don't. If they don't know, then they do not believe. Belief is positive - like pregnancy - you've either got it or you ain't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-14-2018 10:41 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 09-15-2018 11:39 AM Tangle has acknowledged this reply
 Message 61 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-15-2018 10:09 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 66 of 100 (839788)
09-16-2018 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by LamarkNewAge
09-15-2018 10:09 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
LMNA writes:

But an agnostic says they don't KNOW based on the evidence.

No one KNOWS whether there is a god. Everyone is agnostic about god. People only KNOW whether they believe in one or not.

So an atheist is saying "I don't know" as opposed to "There is no God"?

No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s).

Or an atheist simply says "I don't follow the religion"?

No. An atheist is saying that they don't believe in god(s). (And - by extension - the religions they are attached to.)

I always have trouble figuring out what a person means when terms are thrown around. Perhaps there should be some committee to iron out what the term should technically mean.

Agnosticism is a linguistic invention designed to obfuscate a lack of belief so as to make it acceptable in polite Victorian company. There are believers and non-believers, those that say they're agnostic, by definition, are not believers.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by LamarkNewAge, posted 09-15-2018 10:09 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-16-2018 9:33 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 68 of 100 (839794)
09-16-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
09-16-2018 9:33 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Faith writes:

But I think some people are truly on the fence, not having any clear reason to believe but not being quite ready to throw away the idea altogether either.

Sure, that describes most 'Christians' in the UK.

But belief is binary; if you don't know whether you believe or not, then you can't be a believer. People that believe, know that they believe. You can't not know that you believe in something.
And if you're not a believer, you're an atheist. By definition.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 09-16-2018 9:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-16-2018 11:31 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 09-17-2018 12:09 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 70 of 100 (839799)
09-16-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Thugpreacha
09-16-2018 11:31 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Phat writes:

I *can* know that I believe...even though you think its all made up stories and that I would do better to relax and go fishing!

You got it, now get off your knees and go fishing.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-16-2018 11:31 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 76 of 100 (839845)
09-17-2018 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by nwr
09-17-2018 12:09 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
nwr writes:

There can be degrees of belief.

If you believe a just a little tiny bit you're not agnostic, you're still a believer.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 09-17-2018 12:09 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 8:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 78 of 100 (839860)
09-17-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
09-17-2018 8:19 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Faith writes:

You're being awfully strict for no good reason that I can see. If someone really doesn't feel there's much ground for belief but doesn't want to give up on it completely so holds on to the possibility, I think that could fairly be described as agnosticism: he's saying he doesn't know, can't prove it one way or the other, won't commit to all-out atheism but also not to religion either.

You don't commit to atheism, you just don't believe in god.

If you're anything other than an someone who doesn't believe in god, then you're someone that does; you're a theist of some kind. It's definitional.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 8:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 83 of 100 (839873)
09-17-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Thugpreacha
09-17-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.

You've never had a rational mind Phat. Trust me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 4:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 85 of 100 (839892)
09-17-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
09-17-2018 4:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

That's an awfully underhanded remark, Tangle, and totally false anyway.

Faith, Phat's every post points to his total lack of understanding of what 'rational' actually is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 4:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 6:17 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 87 of 100 (839896)
09-18-2018 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
09-18-2018 6:17 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
You're not the best judge of what is rational and what isn't Faith.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 6:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 2:20 PM Tangle has responded

  
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