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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 331 of 341 (839978)
09-20-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by caffeine
09-20-2018 1:39 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
caffeine writes:

It seems to me that all you're really saying is that western Christian culture is diverse. But of course that's going to be the case if we talking about something so big.

Exactly. Western Civilization was Christians and Jews and Muslims and just about every religion that ever existed. And a significant part of that was based on one group saying the other group were NOT Christians. here is almost nothing that is common to all Christians that relates to society or civilization beyond a belief that everybody else are not Christians and are not civilized.

What we call Western Civilization is NOT based on Christian ideals or laws or morals or forms of Governments or economy or science. In the US Constitution we went so far as to put in prohibitions against Christian Government. Particularly when we look at the Western Civilization of the last few hundred years it would be more realistic to call it a Western Muslim civilization since so much of it is based on adopting the Arabic numerals and Arabic science and those actually are common to all that we consider Western Civilization.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by caffeine, posted 09-20-2018 1:39 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 09-20-2018 10:40 PM jar has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2812
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 332 of 341 (839979)
09-20-2018 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
09-13-2018 6:20 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
Faith writes:

The papacy murdered 50 million Bible believing Christians during the Inquisition.

Source please.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 09-13-2018 6:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 09-20-2018 7:27 PM 1.61803 has responded
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 09-20-2018 11:37 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 333 of 341 (839980)
09-20-2018 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by 1.61803
09-20-2018 5:53 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
This has been discussed before. Here's a brief summary of the evidence with links:
Message 223
This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by 1.61803, posted 09-20-2018 5:53 PM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by 1.61803, posted 09-21-2018 10:18 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 334 of 341 (839985)
09-20-2018 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by jar
09-20-2018 4:27 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
What we call Western Civilization is NOT based on Christian ideals or laws or morals or forms of Governments or economy or science.

Funny how it's traditionally been known as "Christendom" then.

Your revisionist zeal is just weird, to be polite about it. It's hard to fathom the hatred you must have for all things Christian to say the things you say, and yet call yourself a Christian.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 09-20-2018 4:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by jar, posted 09-21-2018 8:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 335 of 341 (839987)
09-20-2018 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by 1.61803
09-20-2018 5:53 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
I found this. Lemme look up Faiths links below....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by 1.61803, posted 09-20-2018 5:53 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 336 of 341 (839990)
09-21-2018 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 334 by Faith
09-20-2018 10:40 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
Faith writes:

Funny how it's traditionally been known as "Christendom" then.

It was only called "Christendom" by some Christians. But back in the 1950s when I was in the segment of history course dealing with the last few hundred years it was called Western Civilization not Western Christian Civilization. And that was when I was attending a Christian School affiliated with one of the recognized Protestant Christian sects, not some Christian Avoidance School.

Faith writes:

It's hard to fathom the hatred you must have for all things Christian to say the things you say, and yet call yourself a Christian.

But once again, reality shows you are simply once again wrong and just misrepresenting my position. I do not hate Christianity. I do find the picayune perversion of Christianity based on Calvinism, the modern Biblical Inerrancy movement and the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Dishonesty to be deplorable.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Faith, posted 09-20-2018 10:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2812
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 337 of 341 (839994)
09-21-2018 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by Faith
09-20-2018 7:27 PM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
Hello Faith,

Your first source link is broken.

Your second link says this:

quote:
However, if we are simply talking about official executions during the Spanish Inquisition, most contemporary experts would place the total number of executions between 3,000 and 10,000, with perhaps an additional 100,000 to 125,000 dying in prison as a result of torture and maltreatment. The Inquisition in neighboring Portugal resulted in even fewer such deaths (cf. Joseph Pérez, The Spanish Inquisition [Profile Books, 2006], 173; R. J. Rummel, Death by Government [Transaction Publishers, 2009], 62).

And this:

quote:
David Plaisted acknowledges that reality in his study: namely, that the really big estimates of Protestants killed by the papacy throughout European history necessarily include those who died in religious conflicts like the Thirty Years War.

In short, your "sources" for your lie that the Catholic church killed 50 million protestants during the Inquistions is first off a broken link and a link that disputes your lie.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 09-20-2018 7:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 09-21-2018 2:55 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 338 of 341 (840003)
09-21-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by 1.61803
09-21-2018 10:18 AM


Re: Immigration part of conspiracy to destroy Christian civlization
Too bad, that original link had a really good complete copy. Well, here are some other possibilities:

https://www.jamesjpn.net/...-christ-killed-by-the-roman-pope

http://fliphtml5.com/bsxh/ofmu/basic

I included Cripplegate as a different opinion but they focus on the Spanish INquisition, which was only a very small part of the persecutions by the RCC over the centuries.

I found Plaisted's article in book form at the first link above and just printed it out for myself. He's very thorough. He's working with estimates down the centuries that can't usually be traced but the way he puts it together he's very careful and to my mind the fifty million is believable, especially since there were many much higher estimates than that.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by 1.61803, posted 09-21-2018 10:18 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1367
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 339 of 341 (848467)
02-06-2019 1:22 AM


Trump recently admitted he isn't trying to deport the 10 million illegals.
Ann Coulter said he is going for "amnesty", though her only evidence was that he was considering giving Democrats a deal for the 700,000 Dreamers (there are another 1.1 million undocumented children that weren't part of DACA)the Democrats keep harping about (Democrats apparently threw under the bus the 10 million ADULT undocumented/illegal immigrants a good while back)

Trump (absent any Democratic suggestions!) unilaterally brought up the possibility of amnesty for all the illegals.

quote:

"Trump proposes amnesty," tweeted conservative firebrand Ann Coulter. "We voted for Trump and got Jeb!" she said, in a reference to Trump's 2016 rival, Jeb Bush.

Trump objected.

"No, Amnesty is not a part of my offer," he tweeted. Still, he said he would be open to using "amnesty" on "a much bigger deal, whether on immigration or something else." Many, including Pence, have defined the word "amnesty" as permanent status or a pathway to citizenship for immigrants in the country illegally."Trump proposes amnesty," tweeted conservative firebrand Ann Coulter. "We voted for Trump and got Jeb!" she said, in a reference to Trump's 2016 rival, Jeb Bush.

https://www.wkyc.com/...1c29638a-daa1-4a59-9267-7c1326b071b6


Here was his Tweet

quote:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
No, Amnesty is not a part of my offer. It is a 3 year extension of DACA. Amnesty will be used only on a much bigger deal, whether on immigration or something else. Likewise there will be no big push to remove the 11,000,000 plus people who are here illegally-but be careful Nancy!

95K
7:23 AM - Jan 20, 2019


The fact is that this whole "Border Wall" issue is an argument about something that has already existed for decades. The argument is about whether to call it a "fence" or a "wall".

Trump, thankfully, isn't making a lot of noise about the nuclear policy (to illegal immigrants) of E VERIFY, which would run most illegal immigrants out of the country.

86% of Americans support "self deportation" policies that prevent illegal immigrants from being hired.

quote:

Next, as you may know, the government is considering issuing new tamper-proof Social Security cards as a way for people to prove they are eligible to work in the United States. Would you favor or oppose requiring people to show this card in order to get a job in the U.S.?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx


Trump did say "we need to leave borders behind" in 2013.

Trump might have jumped into the presidential race to help turn public opinion IN FAVOR of immigration rights.

He has done very little to stop people from coming to the country using a visitation VISA. As long as he does not promote "self deportation" policies, like placing big penalties on employers who hire illegals, and using technology to catch workers (and their employers), then those who visit can still get work.

The big phoney "wall" fight, by Trump, might be a stealth pro-immigration tactic. Keep attention away from the policies that would surely cause mass (self) deportations.

Trump seems to be trying to get Democrats to ask for amnesty for the 10-11 million illegals (who they have thrown under the bus and sold out) in exchange for "the wall"? I suspected as much, back in the campaign, as my 2016 posts here can attest to.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1367
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 340 of 341 (848563)
02-10-2019 12:11 AM


Why do some on the pro-immigration side risk waking up sleeping dragons?
Esther Cepeda made this big mistake: reminding (actually alerting the ignorant) folks that illegal immigrants can only exist due to (relatively) weak laws against employers who hire them.

The article starts by attacking Trump, then the slide into dangerous territory (alerting the American people of the actual issue).

quote:

Esther Cepeda: Immigration laws punish wrong people
ESTHER CEPEDA Washington Post 22 hrs ago

In my mind, the defining moment of Donald Trump's presidency happened well before he clinched the White House.

It was in January 2016. He showed his true colors when he said, "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible."

Such bluster could only come from someone who understood that the same people who would accept the recklessness of his comments would also accept the carelessness of his actions. That's why there's been no outrage from Trump's base about reports that his organization had hired immigrants who are unauthorized to live or work in the United States.

Trump's company has fired at least 18 undocumented workers at five golf courses in New York and New Jersey in the past two months, according to The Washington Post.

The story that Trump had hired illegal workers in the first place was broken by The New York Times, which described the ongoing display of hypocrisy as "an embarrassment for the Trump Organization, coming to light as Mr. Trump has railed against illegal immigration, blamed undocumented immigrants for crime and pledged to build a wall along the Mexican border to keep more people from entering the country unlawfully."

https://journalstar.com/...-28cc-5655-9963-af6458c97a04.html


The meat of the (dangerous) article follows.

I will skip to the end.

(Employer "abuses", that is "false documents" & "false papers" being involved in the hiring process, are condemned by Cepeda)

quote:

The sad truth is that these types of dysfunctional employer-employee relationships are common. The powerful employers use up labor as though it is not only cheap but disposable. That's because so many people are waiting and willing to take up the slack after yet another worker has been used up and thrown away.

Oh, and because it's literally written into our immigration laws.

"Before the 1980s, there were no laws about hiring [legal or unauthorized] immigrants; it was only after the [Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986] amnesty that employers had limits on who they could hire," said Muzaffar Chishti, a lawyer and the director of the Migration Policy Institute's office at the New York University School of Law.

"But everyone knew that there was a loophole big enough to drive a truck through: Congress could only sanction employers if they knowingly hired undocumented immigrants. So as long as the employee presents papers and the employer checks them to see if they look facially valid, then it's fine, because the employer will have deniability. It's a gross violation [of the law], with paper compliance."

Chishti said that the farce is a two-way street, because immigrants who want to work -- even at the risk of being underpaid, mistreated, put in danger or otherwise exploited -- accept the terms of this devil's bargain.

Indeed, no one -- not even immigrant advocacy organizations -- is keen to put teeth into the law. Such organizations have long complained that tools such as the federal E-Verify system run on flawed information that could misidentify legal workers. Ultimately, the detente keeps about 7 million of the estimated 11 million unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. gainfully employed, according to Chishti.

Still, the law against employers hiring undocumented workers is really a sanction against the workers, because when the heat is on, it's the immigrant workers -- like those who were employed on Trump properties -- whose lives are upended.

"But if the businesses are fined a couple of thousand dollars for hiring undocumented workers, that amounts to a slap on the wrist ... it's practically figured in to the cost of doing business," Chishti told me.

One might be indignant -- scandalized even -- when thinking about that in the context of a billionaire's luxury property.

But the hiring of unauthorized workers happens every day in the plants where our meat and poultry are processed, in the factories that make our cheap off-the-rack clothing and in the millions of homes where immigrant laborers toil behind closed doors to care for children, the elderly and the infirm.

Perhaps we have met the enemy of reforming employment-related immigration laws -- and it is us.


The employer fine is not big enough, huh?

Next, do we need tougher documents to fake?

So is Cepeda going to complain that the government isn't using technology to compile a database of illegal immigrants?

(I won't ask about what the "solution" is to the "problem" of illegal individuals)

(EDIT: Mitt Romney said that depriving immigrants of work will cause them to "self deport" due to the simple human-misery factor. No significant I.C.E. raids necessary.)

Why complain about a "wall" (OR "The Wall") when the far more draconian type of stuff is strongly suggested by Cepeda's article?

The population is ignorant and I think it is better if it stays that way.

Shut up Esther!

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 341 of 341 (848581)
02-11-2019 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
08-09-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Standards versus chaos
Actually, my gardener is an illegal immigrant from Zimbabwe and he does an excellent job. And he is one of the most educated people I've ever met. In Zim he did vote for Mugabe's Party from 1980 until the 2000's. He got what he deserved. Karma.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 08-09-2018 1:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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