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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Its rather amusing to see you deciding what a God should be or do. I'll let that one go, however. Also...are we only talking about *good* people? If so, by definition we are excluding some.
Either every good person, believer or not, goes to heaven or your God is a vicious sadistic bastard Why would there need to be a protocol? Lets get back to the guest analogy. We now have you indiscriminately inviting any and all guests in to stay the night or the week in your own house. Would you allow them to stay up all night and make noise? Would you allow them to raid the fridge and eat all your food...without prior consent? Would you allow them to invite others over? Would you essentially make them co-owners of your home? Should God be so free and easy as He allows everyone in the door? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: In this case, I go with evidence. I do not see the stories as accurately nor actually representing GOD as to what He inferred to the humans of that time. I also see jars argument concerning the lack of evuidence of a bottleneck (hourglass shape) in the fossil record which would be the case if the flood were literal. That being said, I believe that as a parable the story stands on its own merits. It would make no sense for a God to need to do such a thing if in fact He foreknew the end result. And even if He did not, what would make Him think that the new people from Noah and family would behave any better than the old bunch did?(given a few generations) In conclusion, I dont see God as directly doing such things. The fact that it was written that way only means that the authors wrote it as they understood it...not necessarily how it was. What would you think of a human who caused a gigantic flood that killed millions of people? What would you think of a human who threatened to torture millions with fire? You'd have the same assessment of your God as I do if you weren't working so hard at doublethink. God is beyond word for word literalism. God represents thought for thought introspection and personal growth within the humans who commune with Him. Understanding of God is still evolving as we learn more. Only fools think we have outgrown Him or the need for Him. We humans will never attain full potential without help.
We're talking about God here. Why would God be afraid of people eating his food? The question is whether God would tolerate people in His house who had a free and rebellious will that overrode His authority. You may describe Him as weak because of this, but the implications of Him controlling everyone are scarier.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The problem you guys have is that you misunderstand what "follow" and 'believe" mean. Sheep do, in fact, follow their shepherd and do what he wants them to do. Whether or not they believe his pedigree is not important. It is important. The original sheep were the created angels, according to dogma. One of them decided he wanted to have his run of the place with no acknowledgment of the host. He ceased following at that point and became a rogue leader. A house divided against itself will not stand. Thus, the cherub got booted. My argument concerning you opening your house to any and all carries the same potential problem. Some of whom you invite in will not listen to your house rules. Every house needs rules. Even if you were powerful enough to make all of them listen, your character would be such that you allow your guests autonomy. With autonomy comes the risk of rogues like satan rearing their rebellious little heads and running amuck.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So how does the Bible differ?
Revelation 12:7-9. writes:
So it is clear that Satan was cast out of heaven and 1/3 of the angels went with him. (roughly...dont see a specific reference, but according to dogma) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. I suppose you will argue that Satan is portrayed in Job as an instrument of God. I'll go with that also...but it still portrays the tempter as a temperer. Just as iron is tempered into steel, humans are tempered into hopefully better characters. What better character to temper us than one who was a rebel in the first place. Sorta like an ex thief helping the police provide better security. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You are the one suggesting He let everyone in. I'm merely pointing out that not everyone is a follower nor marches to the same drummer. By definition that entails potential division. God's house, a house belonging to a real God can... not... be... divided. What part of that do you not understand? If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.
The question is how COULD anybody override his authority? Because He gave them free will. If you gave everyone living at your house free will, they may well eat all of your food, sleep in your bed, and flaunt your ownership. Of course, you being a socialist may mean that you gave your house up to the common good anyway. For the life of me.... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
phat writes:
If you invite drunk bikers to your little daughters birthday party, you cant expect everything to go smoothly.ringo writes: He can't without over riding their free will, which is what you never want Him to do to you. (assuming He exists) are you suggesting that He can magically make you get along with everyone while still preserving your right to autonomy? How would He accomplish this? God can. What part of that do you not understand?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
From Wiki:
quote: To say that Satan is portrayed as an agent of God apparently originated in Judaism.
quote: Why do you dismiss the popular Christian belief, as you usually always do? We are not Jews. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
why do you consider yourself more Christian than Jewish? Do you see any Jewish beliefs that you have internalized? How are they similar to your Christian beliefs? Is it all one religion to you?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The ongoing question which we may never find an anser to is whether our ideas and beliefs about said "God character" reflect in any way the actual GOD. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all based on the same God character, the same set of stories, the same basic morality system. Does He care what we think and believe or only what we do? Does He(She,It) care about us any more than pond scum? Will we ever know? Does our obsession with needing to know how GOD thinks indicative of our own need to control things more than finding our Cosmic Daddy?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I've often wondered how you label the Christian Culture of what you call "Willful Ignorance"...and this group appears to be quite large. Most folk don't have such a need or fill it by creating and worshiping the God they imagine. Among them are people whom I respect as being quite inciteful regarding their own personal beliefs and the rationale behind them. You have always attempted to teach that there is no way that anyone can actually know what GOD thinks while we are alive. You have also dismissed most if not all of those who profess Christian apologetics. Matt Dillahunty would agree with you to a large extent. You seem to be ok with not knowing. I agree that it is more about belief than knowledge. My belief insists upon a God Who cares. You seem to have no such need. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So an angel appears to someone. (or a UFO, for that matter) and they are fully aware that they have experienced something unexplainable. They may well attribute it to a supernatural event,then..but can never know? See...I disagree with this idea that the atheists and you guys cling to that evidence is the only standard. Why can't experience count? The issue is no one has ever explained how it might be possible to know anything about any supernatural thing or event.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There is only one problem that the critics reasonable have with the sacrifice.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I forget you can't see videos. It is essentially a video of Matt Dillahunty expounding on this:
It does sound rather convoluted. Christians at church would not so much as entertain this question. In my opinion, it is a valuable question to put on the list of questions for God to answer.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: ...But it SHOULD matter to Phat because he believes something that makes no sense to anyone - a god kills himself to pay for the sins that he didn't commit. What utter drivel. The things we humans believe! Like that we humans are nothing special in this vast universe and likely as not will die off some year...leaving perhaps no more of a contribution to the intergalactic star stuff than wisps of DNA...and plastic! If you can live with such a hedonistic outlook that basically tells you to go fishing, loving, and creating now for tomorrow we die...knock yourselves out! I dont know what you find so silly about a Creator of all who has the capability of communing with us. No sillier than us communicating with some slime alien at some point in the future...what fun that will be! In summation, granted some of the Christian mythos is incredulous. Granted much makes no sense. But the belief in a higher power is no less credulous at this point than our science someday patting itself on the back because we found bacteria on the nearest asteroid!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Im talking about our prospects after death. (physical death here in this world)
You will likely argue that the only death we have evidence for is that. Using evidence as your core belief (seeing is believing) you will stop speculating on any hypotheticals, citing loch ness and Loki as equally likely as a Creator of all seen and unseen who can and will commune with us at some pointChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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