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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 287 of 1184 (840420)
09-29-2018 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
09-29-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar,to Percy writes:
I enjoy the difficulty and responsibility involved.
Responsibility to society?
And you have not shown any evidence that I place anyone else at risk in any manner different than when I drive a car or walk on the street or many other things I do.
Granted we have not correlated the statistical social risk to tailor to your individual situation. I would imagine that you value your right to carry.
We are simply curious about your basic views regarding the counter-arguments in a larger social context. Our intention (mine at least) is not to beat you in this argument so much as to understand your basic philosophy regarding gun laws and if you feel, as Percy does, that many individuals who are legally allowed to carry guns are not as responsible as you and if this should be an area of social concern.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 11:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 09-29-2018 11:52 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 290 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:01 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 288 of 1184 (840421)
09-29-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Tangle
09-29-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Tangle writes:
Two wasn't it? In 'open carry' or whatever the bloody phrase is.
Almost no one notices? Like no one notices a personal number plate, red lipstick or a Gucci handbag. Being noticed is really the point isn't it?
When I open Carry (as opposed to concealed carry), yes, believe it or not almost no one notices. I don't often were red lipstick or carry a handbag so can't comment on those but I admit I do imagine folk would notice me wearing red lipstick.
Backup handguns like most of the knives I carry would most often be concealed so generally not seen.
I explained that I try to get to the range to practice at least twice a week. I will generally shoot a minimum of 50 rounds and as many as 250 rounds in such a session. If I just stop by (it's close to home) I might do a short very specific set of drills on one facet or technique so maybe only 25/50 rounds plus what ever a normal capacity of the handgun of the day would be so it is always loaded is reasonable. I have never tried to carry a years worth of ammo.
For example, today I am carrying a 1980 Colt Detective Special with only 6 rounds of ammunition. I do also have two speed loaders with another six rounds each but only because I am practicing blind reloads (where you eject all the spent shells and then reload without looking at the revolver).
And as I said, I'm not in Europe and in most of the US what I am doing is quite legal and not really that unusual.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2018 11:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2018 2:23 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 289 of 1184 (840422)
09-29-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
09-29-2018 11:42 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Phat writes:
... many individuals who are legally allowed to carry guns are not as responsible as you and if this should be an area of social concern.
I don't exactly see eye-to-eye with jar on gun ownership, and that's fine. Diversity of opinion is healthier than everybody marching in lockstep.
I also don't see eye-to-eye with many people on dog ownership. I agree with my father who said that dogs don't belong in the city. Irresponsible dog ownership causes a lot of harm. A certain amount of dog control is appropriate but there's room for debate on how much. Maybe every police officer doesn't need a police dog. Maybe some people are responsible enough to have a dog just for fun.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 09-29-2018 11:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 290 of 1184 (840424)
09-29-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
09-29-2018 11:42 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Phat writes:
Responsibility to society?
Personal responsibility Phat. I have no responsibility to society beyond obeying the laws and in some cases social norm.
You touch on an important point though that is often discussed among gun owners; do they have a responsibility to help protect society. While the answer to that varies from person to person I feel little responsibility to actively protect others in MOST cases.
If I were present during a robbery or saw someone breaking into a neighbors house or car then my response would be to call 911 and try to note as much information as I could that might help the police. Even if armed I would most likely not intervene.
If there was a situation where there was a direct and immediate threat to life AND if I was pretty sure I could intervene without endangering other innocents (clear lines of sight, known background, high probability of significant success AND a clear immediate threat) then I might try to stop the threat. But it is NOT something I hope ever happens.
Remember, having a License to Carry a handgun does not provide any defense either criminally or civilly in a shooting incident. I am still responsible and must accept those limitations and risks.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 09-29-2018 11:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 09-29-2018 12:08 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 1184 (840425)
09-29-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by jar
09-29-2018 12:01 PM


Handling Our Weapons Responsibly
Phat,to Percy writes:
...I told him that guns represent phallic symbolism to him...perhaps at an unconscious level.
Phat,to jar writes:
...do you see yourself as a responsible watchman over society?
jar,to phat writes:
My motives are irrelevant and you are so bad at guessing you really need to stop.
I think that my phallic symbolism argument has a bit of merit and evidence, even if only humerously!
To wit: Guns, knives, pens. The three categories that you have an interest in, among your other interests!
Psychology Today writes:
According to Freud, the great majority of symbols in dreams are sex symbols. The number three is a symbolic substitute for the entire male genital, whereas the penis alone is represented by long and upright objects such as sticks, umbrellas, poles, trees, or the Washington Monument. It can also be symbolized by objects that can penetrate the body and cause injury — think of knives, daggers, lances, swords, and firearms (especially revolvers). Also substituted for male genitalia are objects out of which water flows, such as faucets and fountains, or objects that can be elongated such as telescopes and collapsible pencils.
Granted, Freuds theories were simplistic and not all inclusive nor specific, but I simply humerously observed that guns, knives and pens all fit the category!
Anyway...getting back on topic..
ringo writes:
I don't exactly see eye-to-eye with jar on gun ownership, and that's fine. Diversity of opinion is healthier than everybody marching in lockstep.
I agree. That is the basic spirit of EvC (or should be) and I feel that by-and-large our arguments and discussions are relevant.
jar writes:
Personal responsibility Phat. I have no responsibility to society beyond obeying the laws and in some cases social norm.(...) I feel little responsibility to actively protect others in MOST cases.
If I were present during a robbery or saw someone breaking into a neighbors house or car then my response would be to call 911 and try to note as much information as I could that might help the police. Even if armed I would most likely not intervene.
If there was a situation where there was a direct and immediate threat to life AND if I was pretty sure I could intervene without endangering other innocents (clear lines of sight, known background, high probability of significant success AND a clear immediate threat) then I might try to stop the threat. But it is NOT something I hope ever happens.
Remember, having a License to Carry a handgun does not provide any defense either criminally or civilly in a shooting incident. I am still responsible and must accept those limitations and risks.
Thanks for your response. We can summerize that we need to be responsible with our "weapon" and the fact that you have no kids shows that you have handled yours quite responsibly.
This from the BBC:
The English words "The pen is mightier than the sword" were first written by novelist and playwright Edward Bulwer-Lytton in 1839, in his historical play Cardinal Richelieu.
Richelieu, chief minister to King Louis XIII, discovers a plot to kill him, but as a priest he is unable to take up arms against his enemies.
His page, Francois, points out: But now, at your command are other weapons, my good Lord.
Richelieu agrees: The pen is mightier than the sword... Take away the sword; States can be saved without it!
The saying quickly gained currency, says Susan Ratcliffe, associate editor of the Oxford Quotations Dictionaries. "By the 1840s it was a commonplace."
Today it is used in many languages, mostly translated from the English. The French version is: "La plume est plus forte que l'epee."

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:01 PM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 292 of 1184 (840432)
09-29-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by jar
09-29-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar writes:
Percy writes:
Are you operating under some weird notion that statistics don't apply to you? That the risks of planes, trains, cars and guns don't apply to you? That your descriptions of constant honing of skills, eternal and masterful vigilance, and superior focus on carefulness and safety, are real rather than just vanity and braggadocio?
Why yes, Percy, I am.
If your claims are just obvious expressions of your vanity and braggadocio and have no basis in fact, why make them?
But of course I was also under the impression you were smart enough to realize that statistics apply to populations and not individual events.
I think you don't understand statistics. So if the odds of dying in some activity were, say, 90%, you'd still do it because "statistics apply to populations and not individual events."
Percy writes:
It is clear from the way you write about them that you like guns because of how they make you feel and not because they are necessary or make you safer.
LOL. Yes, I enjoy building skills. I enjoy the difficulty and responsibility involved.
We all do, but that's no excuse for placing those around you in greater danger, even if you don't care about yourself.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 11:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 09-29-2018 12:47 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 294 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:50 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 293 of 1184 (840433)
09-29-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Percy
09-29-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Percy writes:
So if the odds of dying in some activity were, say, 90%, you'd still do it because "statistics apply to populations and not individual events."
Odds vary greatly according to whether you do something properly or not. If you drive 150 mph down the highway you're more likely to die than a well-trained and well-equipped driver at the Indianapolis 500.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 12:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:51 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 294 of 1184 (840434)
09-29-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Percy
09-29-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Percy writes:
If your claims are just obvious expressions of your vanity and braggadocio and have no basis in fact, why make them?
Because they are not just obvious expressions of my vanity and braggadocio and do have basis in fact.
Percy writes:
We all do, but that's no excuse for placing those around you in greater danger, even if you don't care about yourself.
Yet you have not shown any evidence that I place those around me in greater danger.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 12:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 1:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 295 of 1184 (840435)
09-29-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by ringo
09-29-2018 12:47 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I never quite reached speeds like 150MPH on any of the tracks I drove on but then I also never attempted anything close to that on open roads.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 09-29-2018 12:47 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 296 of 1184 (840437)
09-29-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
09-29-2018 11:33 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar writes:
And you have not shown any evidence that I place anyone else at risk in any manner different than when I drive a car or walk on the street or many other things I do.
You are correct that I haven't shown any evidence for things about which I made no claims. That doesn't change the fact that marching around in public with guns unnecessarily places you and those around you in greater danger.
This isn't the original gun control thread, it's the third. I don't know why it got closed and restarted twice, but it makes searching for links to research in the predecessor threads inconvenient since they have to be located first. But here's an article on a related topic, Statistics on Guns in the Home & Safe Storage:
quote:
Rather than conferring protection, guns in the home are associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
This is a a little more directly related to gun ownership in your state, Statistics on Gun Deaths & Injuries:
quote:
People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.
Research supporting this claim comes from Firearm availability and unintentional firearm deaths, which says in the abstract:
quote:
Of the almost 30 000 people who died in unintentional firearm deaths over the 19-year study period, a disproportionately high number died in states where guns are more prevalent.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 11:33 AM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 297 of 1184 (840438)
09-29-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jar
09-29-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
jar writes:
Percy writes:
If your claims are just obvious expressions of your vanity and braggadocio and have no basis in fact, why make them?
Because they are not just obvious expressions of my vanity and braggadocio and do have basis in fact.
This is just you writing words - we've seen no facts. Maybe everything you've bragged is true, maybe not. Maybe you faithfully store your guns securely and no one else has access, and maybe you're always extremely careful, maybe you're a crack shot, maybe you never get sad or crazy and never will, and maybe you never ever forget anything like leaving a bullet in the chamber or forgetting whether the safety's on. But I doubt it, especially given the reckless disregard for the lives of those around you that you've expressed here.
Percy writes:
We all do, but that's no excuse for placing those around you in greater danger, even if you don't care about yourself.
Yet you have not shown any evidence that I place those around me in greater danger.
Sure I have. You participated in the first gun control thread I started after Sandy Hook, Gun Control Again, where I posted lots of evidence. Plus, as noted earlier, it's simple logic that the presence of guns increases the danger: no guns present means zero chance of gun death, while guns present means a greater than zero chance of gun death.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 12:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 4:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 298 of 1184 (840440)
09-29-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by jar
09-29-2018 11:47 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Jar writes:
Backup handguns like most of the knives I carry would most often be concealed so generally not seen.
You carry a gun, a backup gun AND knives? You can't make your mind up whether you want to be Dirty Harry or Crocodile Dundee can you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 11:47 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 299 of 1184 (840441)
09-29-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tangle
09-29-2018 2:23 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Tangle writes:
You carry a gun, a backup gun AND knives?
quote:
"Never go anywhere without a knife."
-- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
There are some things that no app can do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 09-29-2018 2:23 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 3:43 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 300 of 1184 (840442)
09-29-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
09-29-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I doubt there have been more than one period when I was without a knife since I began school. I was in the hospital for a couple weeks and then rehap at a nursing home for another couple weeks recently and no guns or knives then. But I did get one of my espresso machines brought to the nursing home.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 09-29-2018 2:47 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 301 of 1184 (840443)
09-29-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Percy
09-29-2018 1:14 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Percy writes:
Maybe you faithfully store your guns securely and no one else has access, and maybe you're always extremely careful, maybe you're a crack shot, maybe you never get sad or crazy and never will, and maybe you never ever forget anything like leaving a bullet in the chamber or forgetting whether the safety's on.
Yes Percy, I do store my guns safely and no one else has access to them without stealing the safes and then breaking into them and the ammunition is also stored in separate safes and again, no one has access to them.
But being careful is something you train and practice. You ALWAYS assume there is a round in the chamber and you ALWAYS check to make sure a gun is unloaded. You NEVER rely on a safety and most of my handguns do not have safeties and never had safeties.
I'm certainly not a crack shot which is why I practice as much as I can. I don't try to be a crack shot but rather a competent shot. And I don't always simply practice alone; I will sometimes have a trainer who stands behind me and directs my actions and times my responses as well as grades the results.
Safety is not something added on, it is integral to handgun or long gun ownership.
Percy, the issues you raise are all equally valid when it comes to the far more deadly activity called driving. I also practice defensive driving, active accident avoidance, having my car checked regularly to make sure it's safe and in good condition, trying to always stay in lane and below the posted speed limits and never answering the phone or checking text messages while driving or listening to the radio or relying on cruise control. I drive manual transmission cars not automatics and stop on yellow lights.
Am I perfect?
Nope. A couple decades ago I got a traffic ticket for driving 55mph in a 45mph zone, a short stretch of US 17 where the speed limit dropped and I missed seeing the sign. My fault and I thanked the officer and apologized. But that is my only ticket in 60 years of driving. I have been involved in several accidents but so far in each case it was someone else hit me or was hit by someone else and driven into me.
I take safety seriously.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 1:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Percy, posted 09-29-2018 5:52 PM jar has replied

  
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