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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
And holding back. It's right there, whether you're willfully blind or not. Their sin of LYING TO GOD.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The text is right here:
They were not punished for holding back and THAT is what is clearly in the text.quote:Do you not see where it says, "and to keep back part of the price of the land"? Because everybody else can see it. You're not doing your position any favours by openly lying about it. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It's obvious that you were wrong. What you claimed was diametrically opposite to what Jesus said. You are exaggerating what I was wrong about, and in the end I don't think I was anyway.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I also see where they were killed for holding it back, so clearly the "right to their possession" was not absolute. It's a case of having the right to choose heaven or hell and they chose hell. It's a stupid doctrine, I know, but it's your doctrine, not mine. Do you see where it says they had the right to their possession?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That is not what it says. It plainly includes holding back the money. No apologist can lie their way out of that. they were killed for lying about holding it back, not for holding it back.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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jaywill writes:
Clearly not. They were rebuked for holding back. There could not have been a "right" to hold back. The KJV says they had the power over the money. Similarly, we have the power to murder each other but not the right to exercise the power. He said that they had every right to withhold what they did.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course they had a legal right, both under Roman law and under Jewish law. But the issue has nothing to do with legality. We're talking about a religious community and under their principles, Ananias and Sapphira had no right to steal from the community.
And all Jaywill means by "every right" is they had a LEGAL right. They had a legal right to do whatever they wanted with the land. Faith writes:
That is not what it says.
The sin that killed them was lying about it to God for the sake of pride. Faith writes:
You're leaving out some of "these words". ALL of the words that he heard were, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." The next verse says that Ananaias, hearing THESE WORDS, fell down dead." "And to keep back part of the price of the land," is there, no matter how hard you try to weasel out of it. It's part of the reason that Ananias and Sapphira died.
Faith writes:
Again, legality has nothing to do with it. God doesn't strike people down for violating human laws. He strikes people down for violating HIS laws.
... not because it was wrong in principle since they had a legal right to it. Faith writes:
Your argument from authority is worthless. ... I understand of course that you arrogantly assume you must be righter than the whole history of Christianity....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's not "my theory". It's what the bible says.
OK lets go with your theory. Phat writes:
No, I don't. I have no Judgement hanging over my head. But I do have to do "enough" to satisfy my conscience just like you have to do enough to be a sheep.
Do you have to give all that you can? Phat writes:
Stop it. I have NEVER suggested a Utopian world and I have told you so many times. To keep repeating that despite being corrected is a deliberate lie.
Perhaps in a Utopian world... Phat writes:
That's what it says specifically for the community in Acts 4-5. You might be able to argue that that was an isolated case - but if it wasn't God's principle, why did He kill Ananias and Sapphira for violating it?
... we would all give 100% for each other...is that what you suggest that our Bible whom we believe in says? Phat writes:
I'm in favour of the workers owning the means of production. As far as I know, even if you declare bankruptcy they won't take away what you need to make a living. The carpenter keeps his tools. Most people can keep a vehicle to get to work. It wouldn't make sense to deprive people of the ability to work. The same principle can be applied to ownership of factories, etc. Are you against any right whatsoever to private ownership? I don't think Bill Gates or Elon Musk has a "right" to a big pile of money just because they managed to grab it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
I quoted what you left out - the part where Peter said, "and to keep back part of the price of the land." I can keep quoting it as long as you can keep trying to sweep it under the rug.
I left out no words at all. Faith writes:
See above. They were struck down for lying to god Himself and for keeping back part of the price of the land.
They were not struck down for violating the human law that gave them the legal right to the land, but for lying to God Himself. Faith writes:
There's no arrogance in being able to read. The arrogance is yours, pretending you know better than the Bible.
Sorry, it's your arrogant belief in your own rightness... Faith writes:
An argument from authority is always worthless. ...against two millennia of theologians and believers....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
No, you persist in contradicting what the scripture says.
No, I spelled out the argument from the scripture itself ... Faith writes:
I don't believe you. And even if it was true, it isn't a valid argument.
... and said that's what the whole church has accepted. Faith writes:
I have what the Bible says. Apparently I believe the Bible more than you do. You on the other hand have your own unbelieving self for your authority.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Nope. That isn't how reality works. If millions read it wrong, they're wrong. If millions read it differently than you do, you're wrong. But again, I don't believe your claim that every Christian from the dawn of time has read it your way. You never do anything to back up that claim.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why is that church so much better than the one that does provide for the parishioners' needs? And I can't count on the church to do any more than giving me Raman noodles and cans of food from a food bank.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes: ...my point is that i cant retire on just promises of food quote: So why is your system better than theirs?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
It isn't just me. It's pretty much everybody in this thread except you. It's everybody who can read. It's everybody who doesn't have an axe to grind. You're an upstart arrogant modern unbeliever against some huge number of believers over the millennia, who cares how many since there are a lot more than just you and those who agree with you. If you had an argument, you could present it instead of falling back on fallacy.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Every "argument" you've made has been soundly refuted. Leaving out things like, "and to keep back part of the price of the land," is not a valid argument. Legality is not a valid argument. Popularity is not a valid argument. I've made the argument many times over.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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