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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1010 of 1198 (840609)
10-02-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by Faith
10-02-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
Their sin of LYING TO GOD.
And holding back. It's right there, whether you're willfully blind or not.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1012 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1013 of 1198 (840616)
10-02-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1012 by Faith
10-02-2018 4:25 PM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
They were not punished for holding back and THAT is what is clearly in the text.
The text is right here:
quote:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Do you not see where it says, "and to keep back part of the price of the land"?
Because everybody else can see it. You're not doing your position any favours by openly lying about it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1012 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1015 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1014 of 1198 (840617)
10-02-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Faith
10-02-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
You are exaggerating what I was wrong about, and in the end I don't think I was anyway.
It's obvious that you were wrong. What you claimed was diametrically opposite to what Jesus said.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1016 of 1198 (840621)
10-02-2018 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1015 by Faith
10-02-2018 4:37 PM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
Do you see where it says they had the right to their possession?
I also see where they were killed for holding it back, so clearly the "right to their possession" was not absolute. It's a case of having the right to choose heaven or hell and they chose hell. It's a stupid doctrine, I know, but it's your doctrine, not mine.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1015 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1035 of 1198 (840693)
10-03-2018 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1019 by Faith
10-02-2018 4:55 PM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
they were killed for lying about holding it back, not for holding it back.
That is not what it says. It plainly includes holding back the money. No apologist can lie their way out of that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by Faith, posted 10-02-2018 4:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1037 of 1198 (840707)
10-03-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1036 by jaywill
10-03-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
jaywill writes:
He said that they had every right to withhold what they did.
Clearly not. They were rebuked for holding back. There could not have been a "right" to hold back. The KJV says they had the power over the money. Similarly, we have the power to murder each other but not the right to exercise the power.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1036 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2018 12:18 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1038 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 3:39 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1040 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1039 of 1198 (840721)
10-03-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1038 by Faith
10-03-2018 3:39 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
And all Jaywill means by "every right" is they had a LEGAL right.
They had a legal right to do whatever they wanted with the land.
Of course they had a legal right, both under Roman law and under Jewish law. But the issue has nothing to do with legality. We're talking about a religious community and under their principles, Ananias and Sapphira had no right to steal from the community.
Faith writes:
The sin that killed them was lying about it to God for the sake of pride.
That is not what it says.
Faith writes:
The next verse says that Ananaias, hearing THESE WORDS, fell down dead."
You're leaving out some of "these words". ALL of the words that he heard were, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
"And to keep back part of the price of the land," is there, no matter how hard you try to weasel out of it. It's part of the reason that Ananias and Sapphira died.
Faith writes:
... not because it was wrong in principle since they had a legal right to it.
Again, legality has nothing to do with it. God doesn't strike people down for violating human laws. He strikes people down for violating HIS laws.
Faith writes:
... I understand of course that you arrogantly assume you must be righter than the whole history of Christianity....
Your argument from authority is worthless.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1038 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1042 of 1198 (840724)
10-03-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by Phat
10-03-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:
OK lets go with your theory.
It's not "my theory". It's what the bible says.
Phat writes:
Do you have to give all that you can?
No, I don't. I have no Judgement hanging over my head. But I do have to do "enough" to satisfy my conscience just like you have to do enough to be a sheep.
Phat writes:
Perhaps in a Utopian world...
Stop it. I have NEVER suggested a Utopian world and I have told you so many times. To keep repeating that despite being corrected is a deliberate lie.
Phat writes:
... we would all give 100% for each other...is that what you suggest that our Bible whom we believe in says?
That's what it says specifically for the community in Acts 4-5. You might be able to argue that that was an isolated case - but if it wasn't God's principle, why did He kill Ananias and Sapphira for violating it?
Phat writes:
Are you against any right whatsoever to private ownership?
I'm in favour of the workers owning the means of production. As far as I know, even if you declare bankruptcy they won't take away what you need to make a living. The carpenter keeps his tools. Most people can keep a vehicle to get to work. It wouldn't make sense to deprive people of the ability to work. The same principle can be applied to ownership of factories, etc.
I don't think Bill Gates or Elon Musk has a "right" to a big pile of money just because they managed to grab it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 4:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1043 of 1198 (840725)
10-03-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1041 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:11 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I left out no words at all.
I quoted what you left out - the part where Peter said, "and to keep back part of the price of the land." I can keep quoting it as long as you can keep trying to sweep it under the rug.
Faith writes:
They were not struck down for violating the human law that gave them the legal right to the land, but for lying to God Himself.
See above. They were struck down for lying to god Himself and for keeping back part of the price of the land.
Faith writes:
Sorry, it's your arrogant belief in your own rightness...
There's no arrogance in being able to read. The arrogance is yours, pretending you know better than the Bible.
Faith writes:
...against two millennia of theologians and believers....
An argument from authority is always worthless.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1041 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1045 of 1198 (840727)
10-03-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1044 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:27 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
No, I spelled out the argument from the scripture itself ...
No, you persist in contradicting what the scripture says.
Faith writes:
... and said that's what the whole church has accepted.
I don't believe you. And even if it was true, it isn't a valid argument.
Faith writes:
You on the other hand have your own unbelieving self for your authority.
I have what the Bible says. Apparently I believe the Bible more than you do.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1046 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1047 of 1198 (840729)
10-03-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1046 by Faith
10-03-2018 4:48 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
If millions read it differently than you do, you're wrong.
Nope. That isn't how reality works. If millions read it wrong, they're wrong.
But again, I don't believe your claim that every Christian from the dawn of time has read it your way. You never do anything to back up that claim.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1046 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 4:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1052 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1049 of 1198 (840734)
10-03-2018 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1048 by Phat
10-03-2018 5:01 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:
And I can't count on the church to do any more than giving me Raman noodles and cans of food from a food bank.
So why is that church so much better than the one that does provide for the parishioners' needs?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1048 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1050 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1051 of 1198 (840736)
10-03-2018 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1050 by Phat
10-03-2018 5:07 PM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
Phat writes:
...my point is that i cant retire on just promises of food
quote:
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
So why is your system better than theirs?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1050 by Phat, posted 10-03-2018 5:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1053 of 1198 (840742)
10-03-2018 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1052 by Faith
10-03-2018 5:59 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
You're an upstart arrogant modern unbeliever against some huge number of believers over the millennia, who cares how many since there are a lot more than just you and those who agree with you.
It isn't just me. It's pretty much everybody in this thread except you. It's everybody who can read. It's everybody who doesn't have an axe to grind.
If you had an argument, you could present it instead of falling back on fallacy.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 5:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 6:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1055 of 1198 (840745)
10-03-2018 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by Faith
10-03-2018 6:18 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I've made the argument many times over.
Every "argument" you've made has been soundly refuted. Leaving out things like, "and to keep back part of the price of the land," is not a valid argument. Legality is not a valid argument. Popularity is not a valid argument.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by Faith, posted 10-03-2018 6:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1057 by Faith, posted 10-04-2018 3:13 AM ringo has replied

  
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