Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1054 of 1198 (840744)
10-03-2018 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by ringo
10-03-2018 6:04 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
You are lying. I've made the argument many times over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:25 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1057 of 1198 (840762)
10-04-2018 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1055 by ringo
10-03-2018 6:25 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Nothing was left out. Ananias died on hearing the specific words about lying to the Holy Spirit. THAT'S WHAT THE TEXT SAYS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by ringo, posted 10-03-2018 6:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:41 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1058 of 1198 (840763)
10-04-2018 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by Phat
10-04-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Jaywill first (Faith's points later,but not her ad hominems against unbelievers
There is other scripture that says we must work to take care of ourselves and our families, so it is simply not possible that we are charged with giving 100%. Ringo is as usual defending his own ridiculous misreading of the Bible.
The best model I've heard of was John Wesley's policy of giving away whatever was in excess of what he needed to live on. He calculated his needs, quite conservatively I'm sure, and gave away anything he received that was more than that.
People who have been asked to give all were especially chosen for some particular mission, such as a Hudson Taylor who became a missionary to China. During the years that led up to that he helped poor people in his area. In one case he had a coin left for his own meal and felt the Holy Spirit telling him to give it to the poor family instead. He did and it became a lesson to him in how the Lord provides for those who trust Him. But we are not all called to that degree of sellf-sacrifice. You have to be dedicated way beyond the norm. Taylor spent hours on his knees in prayer, and then spent the rest of his life in China.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by Phat, posted 10-04-2018 2:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1059 of 1198 (840765)
10-04-2018 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by Tangle
10-03-2018 2:55 AM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Which believers, the ones you agree with?
There are lots of believers I don't agree with on some things but are nevertheless believers and would agree with me about this scripture..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2018 2:55 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1060 of 1198 (840766)
10-04-2018 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Tangle
10-03-2018 10:31 AM


Re: Was there a squashed attempt at a "socialistic" Christian government pre 50/70 A.D.?
Faith writes:
A genuine believer is someone who is born again and lives for Christ.
So that would be anybody that believes what you believe?
It would be anybody who puts all trust in Christ for salvation which can vary from my own specific beliefs.
There is no doubt what Pascal meant and it is not what you interpreted it to mean. He thinks it very wise of God to inspire the Bible in such a way as to enlighten believers but mislead unbelievers.
Yes that's what he means. But the conclusion from that is that god can only communicate with those that already believe in him. What use is that?
If we don't believe we do not have the spiritual means for communicating with God. There are some basics, like you desire to know God, like you respect God's offer of salvation, like you are willing to repent and do things God's way. Those who have none of that should also have no ability to understand the Bible correctly.
His stated intention was to save the world, not just a lucky few.
His stated intention was that He wanted everyone to repent and believe but we know there are lots of people who won't do that. You for instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2018 10:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1063 of 1198 (840785)
10-04-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1062 by ringo
10-04-2018 11:41 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Act 5:4-5 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
As I said, he heard the words about lying to God and died. No mention of holding back money as the cause of his death. It's about lying to God, period.
Yes, AGAIN, they were morally wrong to hold back part of the money but they were legally in the right to do so as the statement about it beig in their control shows. God punished them for lying to Him about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:59 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1065 of 1198 (840793)
10-04-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by ringo
10-04-2018 11:59 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Well, you aren't going to give an inch and neither am I. I represent the history of Christian thought on this one though and you represent nothing but your own misreading of the text.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 12:16 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1069 of 1198 (840802)
10-04-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1067 by ringo
10-04-2018 12:16 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I've now looked up four reputable commentaries on this passage and they all disagree with you, saying Ananias and Sapphira had the right to dispose of their property as they pleased and that they were punished for lying to God about it: David Guzik at Blue Letter Bible, Jamieson Fausset and Browne at Blue Letter Bible, Matthew Henry at Blue Letter Bible, and John Gill. Gill and Henry go back a couple of centuries, JF &B go back about a century, and Guzik is a contemporary. I can't link to the commentaries at BLB so you'd have to look them up yourself (go to link and then "tools."), but I can link to John Gill.
This is from J F and B:
4. While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?--from which we see how purely voluntary were all these sacrifices for the support of the infant community.
This is from John Gill:
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own
Before it was sold, it was his own proper estate; he had the sole propriety in it, and could have kept it, or disposed of it as he pleased: he was not obliged to sell it, he might have kept it as his own property; for selling of possessions at this time was a voluntary thing; it was what no man was forced to; it was a pure act of liberality, and what was not enjoined by the apostles; every man was left to his liberty.
And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?
that is, the price for which it was sold: before he had declared that he sold it, in order to give the whole of it to the church, had brought it to the apostles as the whole; it was in his own power to dispose of, as he pleased, whether to give the whole, or a part of it, or it. He might have kept it all if he had thought fit, or have given what portion he pleased.
The point has been clear enough all along but with these notable Christian opinions you really need to concede the point.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:00 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1071 of 1198 (840807)
10-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1070 by ringo
10-04-2018 1:00 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Obviously you do NOT agree with them as all the commentaries clearly say they were NOT in disobedience in holding back the money. I'm done with this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1073 of 1198 (840810)
10-04-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by ringo
10-04-2018 1:17 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
YOU ARE MISREADING THAT AND ALL THE COMMENTARIES DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT IT. THEY WERE NOT PUNISHED FOR HOLDING BACK THE MONEY, AS ALL THE COMMENTARIES EXPLICITLY SAY. THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOUR THINKINJG AND I'M FED UP WITH IT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1075 of 1198 (840812)
10-04-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1074 by ringo
10-04-2018 1:33 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
In context it cannot possibly mean that they were punished for it whatever Peter meant. All he could have meant is that they were morally wrong to hold back the money, but since they were not legally wrong to do it; since they were "under no obligation" to give it all; since Peter goes on to insist on their having complete authority over their possessions; since the giving was voluntary and not obligatory as the commentators all agree; and since Peter explicitly says their sin was lying to God, then it simply does not mean their holding on to some of the money was the cause of their punishment. Their pretending they weren't holding on to it and llying about it was the cause of their death. You are insisting on your own interpretation of one phrase that is contradicted by the whole context.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 1:33 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 2:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1085 of 1198 (841049)
10-07-2018 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1084 by Phat
10-07-2018 1:37 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that. The passage merely says they had control over what they gave so they could have given part and the worst would have been that they'd have had to feel stingy in the context of the more generous givers, which is why they lied. But they didn't have to give it all and they didn't have to lie, just put up with a bruise to their ego.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1084 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 1:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1086 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1087 of 1198 (841056)
10-07-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1086 by Phat
10-07-2018 2:15 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
They would not have been any less believers if they'd just not lied about wanting to give less than the whole price of their property. As it is we can now wonder if they were really believers at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1088 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1089 of 1198 (841061)
10-07-2018 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1088 by ringo
10-07-2018 2:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Well, at least you couldn't be mistaken for a believer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1088 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1094 of 1198 (841074)
10-07-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1092 by ringo
10-07-2018 3:09 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1095 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024