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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 1677 (840997)
10-06-2018 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by caffeine
10-06-2018 12:36 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
I recall once or twice actually following the teacher's recommendation and looking up actual Bible passages; and discovering how strange the Bible is. Thee story that springs to mind is the one about Abraham (?) quickly chopping off his son's foreskin and putting it on his son's forehead, in a successful attempt to forestall God's inexplicable and sudden demand for his son's death. None of the weirdness with the foreskin was mentioned in the summary of the story we'd read in class, and I believe we were often shielded from the actual text to maintain the fiction that these stories from a distant and alien culture carried lessons for our lives.

It was Moses, but I didn't remember anything about the forehead so I looked it up. God was threatening to kill Moses because he hadn't had his son circumcised, which is the sign of the covenant between God and Israel. It wasn't "inexplicable" and the demand was for Moses' death, not his son's. And it was his wife Zipporah who cut off the foreskin, and cast it at Moses' feet. Nothing about the forehead although one translation says she "touched" his feet with it which is weird enough. But "cast it" is the more common translation.

Exo 4:24-26 writes:

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Faith writes:

Since there was no difference in what people thought about Jesus in the early centuries from what they thought later I don't see the point of this idea.

Obviously you know this is not true, since there are plenty of accounts of Christ from the early centuries of the Christian era that you consider false, as there are views from later centuries you consider false. There have been many interpretations of Jesus down through the centuries.

I'm getting awfully tired of being called a liar. No, I do not know about any "plenty of accounts," I know of a consistent understanding of Jesus' life throughout the history of traditional Christianity, so whatever you have in mind has to be some oddball or heretical line that I'm not even aware of, or possibly gave no attention to because I knew they were false and therefore utterly irrelevant since the valid tradition does not acknowledge them.

My only point, though, was that the actual details of Jesus' life are poorly attested.

That's ridiculous. There are four different accounts of His life and they are traditionally put together to give the full picture.

You can discuss the history of Christianity simply by discussing what different Christians believed and did. The true Jesus behind all that doesn't matter (I know you think different - but bear in mind I'm talking from the point of view of someone who doesn't believe in God).

Which is where things have sadly ended up when before the whole society in general accepted the Biblical portrait of Jesus and all the rest of the gospel.

You've discussed the idea that Christianity is not given the prominence in education you think it should because of some nefarious conspiracy.

This comes from the book that started this discussion, which shows that there seem to be strange absences of major historical events from twentieth century textbooks and news publication accounts. Otherwise I accepted the usual notion that it was all just the natural erosion of belief over time.

But think this through - you think, as you've said, that the only important history is about Christ and his influence on the world. As you're aware though, lots of people in this world are not Christians. Anyone who sets out to sincerely and honestly write a history of the world. focusing on the events that they consider most important, is bound to write a history that in your opinion lays too little stress on Jesus and the Reformation unless they share your beliefs. Not because they're trying to be hostile to Christianity, but because these events would clearly actually be less important than you think they are if your beliefs were not true.

Again, the context of this discussion is the book (Prodigal Press) that shows odd absences of major historical events formerly recognized as major, in publications by WESTERN writers whose cultural background would have recognized those major historical Christian events.

I believe you've mentioned that you were not Christian in your younger days. If you'd considered the most important events in history then, would you have said Jesus and Luther? And if not, would this be because you were engaged in a conspiracy to undermine Christianity, or just because you had a different perspective on things than you do today?

I became a believer in my mid to late forties. I'm NOW stating what I NOW consider to be the objective truth which I've learned by studying the history of Christianity, about what are truly the most important events in all of human history, which have been removed from our cultural heritage over the last century. I am responding to this particular book which shows something more than a mere erosion of belief over time in western civilization. What I believed before is utterly irrelevant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by caffeine, posted 10-06-2018 12:36 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by caffeine, posted 10-06-2018 4:15 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 437 of 1677 (840999)
10-06-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Percy
10-06-2018 10:05 AM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
None of that is the email I think I remember.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 10-06-2018 10:05 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Percy, posted 10-06-2018 3:16 PM Faith has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19795
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 438 of 1677 (841002)
10-06-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by Faith
10-06-2018 1:52 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
Faith writes:

None of that is the email I think I remember.

That's the email that gets cited in articles about Pizzagate. If you're thinking of some other email then here's a link to Wikileaks Podesta emails - go to town. Just type "pizza" into the box and click the Search button.

Here, I've done the search for you already, just click here. There are 149 such emails.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by Faith, posted 10-06-2018 1:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 8:17 AM Percy has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1798
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 439 of 1677 (841003)
10-06-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Faith
10-06-2018 1:25 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
It was Moses, but I didn't remember anything about the forehead so I looked it up. God was threatening to kill Moses because he hadn't had his son circumcised, which is the sign of the covenant between God and Israel. It wasn't "inexplicable" and the demand was for Moses' death, not his son's. And it was his wife Zipporah who cut off the foreskin, and cast it at Moses' feet. Nothing about the forehead although one translation says she "touched" his feet with it which is weird enough. But "cast it" is the more common translation.

Clearly I'm not so BIble literate from all my lessons. This was a couple of decades ago in my defence.

I'm getting awfully tired of being called a liar. No, I do not know about any "plenty of accounts," I know of a consistent understanding of Jesus' life throughout the history of traditional Christianity, so whatever you have in mind has to be some oddball or heretical line that I'm not even aware of, or possibly gave no attention to because I knew they were false and therefore utterly irrelevant since the valid tradition does not acknowledge them.

I've never accused you of lying. I was simply pointing out that you knew of 'oddball and heretical' accounts - like the various non-canonical gospels. All sorts of strange ideas about Jesus have been entertained - that he didn't have a corporeal body, for example. You know these things exist and 'know' they are false because of what you 'know' about the reality of Jesus. But to someone like me who lacks your 'knowledge'; the other views are interesting too.

That's ridiculous. There are four different accounts of His life and they are traditionally put together to give the full picture.

There are four canonical accounts that are mutually contradictory in certain points. There are of course other non-canonical accounts which I think you consider later inventions. And I would agree - I just think the same applies to the Gospel of John, for example. And I don't think figuring out whether Mark is a genuine historical account matters for a history of the subsequent development of Christianity.

I became a believer in my mid to late forties. I'm NOW stating what I NOW consider to be the objective truth which I've learned by studying the history of Christianity, about what are truly the most important events in all of human history, which have been removed from our cultural heritage over the last century. I am responding to this particular book which shows something more than a mere erosion of belief over time in western civilization. What I believed before is utterly irrelevant.

I know what you now consider to be the objective truth. And the authors of Prodigal Press agree with you.

The thing is, there are certain events which, if you and the authors of this book are correct, are amongst the most significant in human history. You have been claiming that there is a conspiracy to suppress these events in textbooks. All I'm trying to point out is that these events are not so earth-shatteringly significant if the view of the cosmos shared by yourself and the authors of Prodigal Press is wrong.

I think this view is wrong. As I'm sure you're aware, I do not believe in God. I do not think Jesus was anything other than a man. I don't think there's any such thing as salvation, or life after death. If I write a history of the world, it's obviously going to have a very different emphasis than if you did. But that's not because of any conspiracy to suppress Christianity. It's just I have a very different perspective to you and the authors of this book.

Edited by caffeine, : Edited to add a key 'not'. Thanks xongsmith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Faith, posted 10-06-2018 1:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 10-06-2018 6:20 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply
 Message 443 by xongsmith, posted 10-06-2018 10:16 PM caffeine has not yet responded
 Message 447 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 8:03 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 440 of 1677 (841004)
10-06-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
08-31-2018 8:19 AM


nvm

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 08-31-2018 8:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 441 of 1677 (841005)
10-06-2018 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-31-2018 4:39 AM


Always had a feeling Faith was a frakkin toaster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 08-31-2018 4:39 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 442 of 1677 (841006)
10-06-2018 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by caffeine
10-06-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
Sorry for getting impatient but it was like being called a liar. Heresies simply don't count in my frame of reference, they don't even really exist, and wouldn't be taken into account in any cultural presentation of Christianity either. I rarely ever answer any of LamarkNewAge's long posts because they practically require the recapitulation of every doctrinal conflict already fought in Christian history.

And it's only unbelievers who think there are any contradictions in the gospels. You all think they are important but to me they are just irritating nonsense.

And what you remembered about the circumcision incident would just be evidence that you weren't really taught any Bible despite its being nothing much other than Bible stories. That's interesting to find out at least.

The west did used to be genuinely Christian and it's very sad to me how utterly totally completely lost all that is. But fighting it out here is pretty counterproductive. I'm not good at it and it's hard on me and everybody else. I should leave it to people who have more patience than I do. I can pray, but that's about it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by caffeine, posted 10-06-2018 4:15 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1947
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 443 of 1677 (841009)
10-06-2018 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by caffeine
10-06-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
caffeine writes in Message 439:

But that's because of any conspiracy to suppress Christianity.

I think you may have forgotten the word "NOT", as in "But that's NOT because of any conspiracy to suppress Christianity."

???

Edited by xongsmith, : No reason given.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by caffeine, posted 10-06-2018 4:15 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16201
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 444 of 1677 (841018)
10-07-2018 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by Faith
10-06-2018 6:20 PM


Re: Journalism and Moral Relativis
quote:

Sorry for getting impatient but it was like being called a liar. Heresies simply don't count in my frame of reference, they don't even really exist, and wouldn't be taken into account in any cultural presentation of Christianity either.

I see. You want to suppress important parts of Christian history.

quote:

And it's only unbelievers who think there are any contradictions in the gospels. You all think they are important but to me they are just irritating nonsense.

The existence of the contradictions is objective fact. And they can be relevant to historical investigation of the Gospels. The differing genealogies in Matthew and Luke, for instance shows us that early Christians believed that Jesus was of Davidic descent but had no clear idea of his ancestry.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Faith, posted 10-06-2018 6:20 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 445 of 1677 (841020)
10-07-2018 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
09-11-2018 6:15 AM


Predictably Wrong
I’ve been reading this thread and I think it’s worth reiterating the main point here. Rapture was predicted by Faith in a way that is very clearly testable. It either happens or it doesn’t. That testable claim was proved to be entirely wrong, as pretty much everyone here knew it would be.

Result - Faith is now more convinced than ever in the veracity of her beliefs.

That is the believer’s reaction to demonstrable failure. Increased belief. Now bear in mind that most religious claims are designed to be untestable in any way and that this sort of cock-on-the-block proclamation is relatively rare and it’s clear that for people like Faith there is absolutely nothing that could ever cause her to properly question the things she holds dear. She’s in a loop of conviction with absolutely no way out.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 09-11-2018 6:15 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 7:45 AM Straggler has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 446 of 1677 (841021)
10-07-2018 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by Straggler
10-07-2018 4:05 AM


Predictable total misreading as usual
You certainly didn't read very carefully. I said clearly that the timing was my own guess and isn't determined by the Biblical prophecy itself which offers nothing on the timing question except the admonition to watch and be aware of events that suggest it is close. I The Bible tells us only that we will be caught up to meet Jesus when He returns, that's it. If we guess wrong about when that is that's our fault, not the Bible's fault. The prophecy itself still stands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2018 4:05 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2018 12:20 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 447 of 1677 (841022)
10-07-2018 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by caffeine
10-06-2018 4:15 PM


Oh well
The situation is this: I'm VERY VERY sure of my overall understanding of Christian history and doctrine. I'm VERY VERY sure of the defeat of the heresies and cults by the best theologians in Christian history, so I feel no need whatever to even acknowledge their existence. I know they are wrong, the great men of Christianity have proved them wrong. I read a lot on all those subjects during my early years of becoming a Christian. My beliefs are orthodox to the core. And I also know a fair amount about Christian history and its effect especially on Europe, though if I were more of a scholar than I am I'd seek to know a lot more than I do.

So it is very disappointing when I encounter unbelievers insisting that the heresies that were defeated long long ago are equal in value to the accepted doctrines of Christianity, and must be taken seriously. And disappointing to find out just HOW utterly ignorant of the illustrious history of Christianity so many people are who grew up in the west, especially in Britain which has maybe THE most illustrious Christian history of all.

I get impatient with these things. I'm obviously not cut out for debate because I can't take the opposition's point of view seriously for half a second, I just know it's utterly wrong and it's annoying that I'm asked to take it seriously. And then of course I'm told that I'm wrong because of ridiculous misreadings of the Bible that are offered as truth over the traditional readings, and because of some heretical writer's opinion that is more persuasive to the unbeliever. And then I'm called arrogant because I know I'm right, and the unbeliever wants me to consider that his own view is at least equal to my own in truth value since I can't prove anything to his satisfaction.

So obviously I am not cut out for debate. I want to tell what I know to be the truth and have it accepted just because I'm honest and it IS the truth. That's it.

Now everybody here can go ahead and call me all the usual names and worse.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by caffeine, posted 10-06-2018 4:15 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 451 by Tangle, posted 10-07-2018 12:40 PM Faith has responded
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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 448 of 1677 (841023)
10-07-2018 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by Percy
10-06-2018 3:16 PM


pizza
As I said I'm not at all interested in pursuing the Pizzagate topic. PaulK had been throwing it in my face as an example of how evil I am so I finally asked him to show me what I'd supposedly said about it. As a result I now remember at least that the way pizza was discussed in some email or other is simply very strange, and could support the suspicion of some kind of conspiracy. I see no reason to change my mind about that. The email you posted is also strange in relation to anything having to do with pizza. It's just odd. If you don't see that oh well. I came to a reasonable conclusion long ago and don't want to discuss it any more.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by Percy, posted 10-06-2018 3:16 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Percy, posted 10-07-2018 10:00 AM Faith has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19795
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 449 of 1677 (841028)
10-07-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Faith
10-07-2018 8:17 AM


Re: pizza
Faith writes:

As I said I'm not at all interested in pursuing the Pizzagate topic.

Of course you're not interested in discussing it. You're not interested in discussing anything where you're obviously dead wrong. I now regret deleting my sarcastic paragraph about how you would avoid the subject.

PaulK had been throwing it in my face as an example of how evil I am...

I don't think that's an interpretation any reasonable person would make. PaulK is highlighting your strong tendency to accept any story consistent with your cockamamie views, no matter how absurd.

...so I finally asked him to show me what I'd supposedly said about it. As a result I now remember at least that the way pizza was discussed in some email or other is simply very strange,...

If you're going to keep calling the ways pizza was discussed in email "very strange" then it is incumbent upon you to produce that email or shut up about it. I gave you a link to a list of all the Podesta emails that mention pizza, and here it is again: list of Podesta emails that mention pizza. Here are the sentences that mention pizza from the first ten emails. Obviously Podesta is talking about food for meetings and fundraisers:

  1. Possible menu _ Indian: suggestions welcome.

    1. Mixed grill of Tandoori chicken, lamb, and Lahori fish: Pizza oven.
    Garnished with ribbon onions in lemon mint chutney.
    2. Garlic Naan ( freshly baked, pizza oven @ 550 degrees)

  2. $27.84 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 9/16 in opposition to Marilyn Musgrave (CO-04)
    $29.00 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 9/18 in opposition to Marilyn

  3. Wanted to flag a dinner I'm doing at my house tomorrow for Hillary.
    Doing a fundraiser at my house with my brother John on October 6 at my house, John and I are cooking along with guest chefs James Alefantis of Comet Ping Pong Pizza and Buck's Camping and Fishing, Amy Brandwein of Centrolina and Massimo Fabbri of Ristorante Posto.

  4. A $30 donation will help buy pizza for the volunteers at tonight's phone bank.

  5. $44.90 for pizza for canvassers (Mario's Restaurant) on 10/07 in support of Martin HEINRICH (NM-01)
    $44.90 for pizza for canvassers (Mario's Restaurant) on 10/07 in support of Obama
    $10.50 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 10/04 in support of MARK E UDALL (CO Senate)
    $10.50 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 10/04 in support of Obama

  6. I'm going to pass. I have too much to do before heading to Michigan tomorrow. No need for pizza.
    ...
    Or I could bring a pizza home

  7. The realtor found a handkerchief (I think it has a map that seems pizza-related. Is it yorus?

  8. do you want to use the outdoor pizza oven at all?

  9. - $15.72 for pizza for canvassers (Mario's Restaurant) on 8/13 in opposition to Steve Pearce (NM-Senate)
    ...
    - $21.51 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 8/13 in opposition to Marilyn Musgrave (CO-04)
    - $36.38 for pizza for canvassers (Pizza Hut) on 8/14 in opposition to Marilyn Musgrave (CO-04)

  10. Shes doing no Virginia event at 500pm
    Do you wanna do pizza or try to sell to terry event
    ...
    Subject: Re: Hillary pizza party April 10

    I wish she could! Unfortunately she is only able to do that one on the 10th.
    ...
    Subject: Re: Hillary pizza party April 10

    Just wanted to follow up on this.
    ...
    Subject: Re: Hillary pizza party April 10

    We just got word that the Secretary will likely be in town one of the first weekends of April for an event in the DC area. Would you and James possibly be available on April 24th? I just want to make sure we space the events far enough apart to make them both successful.
    ...
    Subject: Re: Hillary pizza party April 10
    On the calendar!

    Thanks, all.
    ... Hosting pizza party at Belmont for HFA on April 10.


So where are the suspicious mentions of pizza? Remember, a key claim of the conspiracy theory was that "cheese pizza" has the initials "c.p.", which are the initials of "child pornography", but the phrase "cheese pizza" appears nowhere in the Podesta emails. The claim is just made up, as are all the other details of the conspiracy theory.

...and could support the suspicion of some kind of conspiracy.

Where do you see any hint of code in any of the above? Why would John Podesta write in code when he believed his emails private?

I see no reason to change my mind about that.

You had no reason to make up your mind in the first place. The idea appealed to you, so you believed it.

The email you posted is also strange in relation to anything having to do with pizza. It's just odd. If you don't see that oh well.

If you see the email as odd then you should be able to describe what is odd about it. The lines that mention pizza from that email are in the above list, and the one you're talking about is number 7. Podesta's emails about meetings and fundraisers mention pizza a lot. 149 of his emails mention pizza. What's so odd about a handkerchief that seemed to have written on it a map to a pizza place?

I came to a reasonable conclusion long ago and don't want to discuss it any more.

You made up your mind a long time ago, but you never came to a reasonable conclusion. There is no child sex ring being run out of Comet Ping Pong Pizza, Hillary Clinton has no connection to Comet Ping Pong Pizza and she's never been there, and Comet Ping Pong Pizza has no basement out of which the child sex ring was supposedly run. Your persistence in thinking Pizzagate true despite the complete lack of evidence and the debunking of all debunkable claims is just like your persistence in thinking the rapture imminent despite 2000 years of failed predictions, including your own.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 8:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 1:20 PM Percy has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 142 days)
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 450 of 1677 (841030)
10-07-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
10-07-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Predictable total misreading as usual
Of course. But if you can be so demonstrably wrong about ‘when’ why does that not cause you any reason to doubt the veracity of the whole thing? The ‘evidence’ you cited for the ‘when’ is of the same type you rely on for knowing any of this will ever occur.

It’s all about how you determine fact from fiction. And to anyone remotely objective the idea that your method of determining fact from fiction has failed so spectacularly would cause one to at least consider the other conclusions made on the same basis.

But you are now more convinced of your overall conclusion than the ever. It’s just bizarre.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 7:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 1:08 PM Straggler has responded

  
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