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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: It doesn’t matter whether you consider it useless or not. The order of the fossil record is a major feature. Any viable explanation of the fossil record must account for it. The Flood explanation fails to do so. Even if your opinions about evolution were true it wouldn’t matter. But again thank you for proving me correct about you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But if there is no evolution there is no order, it's just an odd illusion, so there is nothing to account for.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That is nonsense. The order is an observed fact. Again - since you seem to have missed it - I am talking of the observed order.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But there is no problem with the order in the sense of the same fossils ending up in the same layers, that's just a mechanical thing.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: Then please produce this mechanical explanation. Because nobody else has been able to come up with one that explains the actual order. And you haven’t in previous discussions either.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Funny you think this mere empty assertion is "demonstrable" truth, or that a hundred years means something. Now Faith, you know that when I say that that the world knows that the earth is old, I mean it has knowledge that it's old, not simply believes that it's old. We can prove it and have shown you how here many times.
Do you really think somebody just invented all those genealogies? Yes. Obviously.
I laughed when I learned the Earth is only 6000 years old. It's really pretty funny in the context of today's ridiculous ideas about its age. It does seem that there's nothing to be done about people that actually DO believe that the earth is flat, that aliens carry out anal probes on humans and that walking under ladders is unlucky. Us normals just have to live with the loons and hope they don't do any real damage.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Just to add past perspective to this discussion:
ringo in 2012 writes: How do you conclude that the Bible is the word of God? Doesn't it have to conform to reality in some way to be considered reliable? Faith in 2012 writes: Well I KNOW it's the word of God. Many things contribute to that knowledge that I don't think I could easily spell out although they include such mundane things as that I simply believe the Bible writers are credible witnesses. Since what they witness includes the supernatural works of God and Jesus Christ, that's good evidence OF God, and since that much is true I also believe the statements in scripture that point to its writers being inspired by God. But it doesn't necessarily all come together in that order and there's lots more than that, seems to me every day I learn new things that confirm the Bible is God's word. I also believe it does reflect reality, perfectly, and for the most part that is verified by observation and experience. Where it isn't I simply know that God's creation and God's word can't contradict each other and since God is infallible and human thought is fallible, it's a no-brainer which one has to yield to the other, starting with my own thoughts when something in scripture is beyond my understanding. It's a sad thing that so many put their own minds above God's. ringo in 2012 writes: Reality is that the geological record could not have accumulated in 6000 years. The Bible is wrong about that, period. ringo in 2012 writes: You can't just say that the sky "must be" green because the Bible sez so. Looking out the window proves it isn't so. Reality is where you have to start. Faith in 2012 writes: Well, the Bible doesn't say such absurd things, overall it confirms observation and experience of the world. The conflicts come in with these speculative sciences about the past. Once you know God's word IS God's word, you know those are wrong. It would be nice to be able to prove it, and I think a lot of creationism has been proved, but also He doesn't seem to want to give us too much of that sort of evidence, because we are not to "walk by sight" meaning things we know, but "by faith." God has set things up so that we are to BELIEVE Him over our own thoughts. Those who do that, find that there is a lot more to reality bthan we ever dreamed. "Repent and believe" says scripture. "Believe and be saved" says scripture. "Faith is the evidence of things unseen" says scripture. "All these things have been written that ye might BELIEVE..." says scripture. That's the rules. That way lies salvation, that way lies blessings beyond imagination. That's the ONLY way to Reality. Faith will never change her mind as her belief includes inerrancy of scripture..in a word for word way. I dont go that far, but would never dismiss the idea that Jesus existed and now exists. Thats as far as I will go.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Since evolution is false on other grounds so that the order is not evidence for evolution, you have no explanation for the order either. It must be mechanically explained, but since you don't have an explanation either, that's the best that can be said for now.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The amount of variation/evolution in living things that we see today fits pretty nicely into a few thousand years given the disease and death that entered at the Fall, much of it brought about by the disease process known as mutation. Millions of years is not only unnecessary, but given the reality of gradual attrition to extinction nothing would be left alive by now on the Old Earth model.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Wrong on every count. The most important point is that we only need the life on Earth to change over time - Progressive Creation works as well for that as evolution.
quote: Since you have no viable explanation and since your arguments against evolution don’t work - and wouldn’t be sufficient even if they did - we can still say that the order of the fossil record is strong evidence against the claim the the Flood created the fossil record.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Just noticed you are on the board and since you've come to mind recently because of some devotional writings I've been reading I thought I might address a post or two to you about it.
You seem to limit your idea of the Christian life to good works, or loving your neighbor, would you say that's correct?
GDR writes: Yes, as a Christian I believe that Jesus perfectly modeled the nature of God but although His basic message of love of all creation, and even our enemies is simple, understanding it's application isn't always so simple, so there are disagreements and it is belief. What about love of God in your system? It's the first of the ten commandments after all. Love of neighbor with all the good works that entails is embodied in the other commandments but love of God comes first. Devotional writings aim to raise our affections to God Himself but I was wondering if you consider your relation to God to be much of a part of Christian life at all. It seems that you may not just because you seem so focused on love of, as you say above, the creation, enemy etc.
I base my life on the faith that my understanding of God is at least close enough to the truth to use that teaching as a foundation to base my life on, no matter how imperfectly I do it. Which is all about doing good for others, loving others? What about prayer? How much is that part of your Christian vision? How about prayer just as communion with God because He's lovable and wants our company? Our conversations are usually about your objection to making the Bible so important, but I started thinking that you may be missing something apart from that issue, just in how you live in terms of Jesus' message rather than in terms of loving Jesus Himself personally above all else. Just a thought. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
We've only known to fly for a hundred years or so. We've only known how to go to the moon for fifty years or so. We've only known about nuclear energy for a hundred years or so. We've only known about electricity for a couple of hundred years. Funny you think this mere empty assertion is "demonstrable" truth, or that a hundred years means something. So the length of time that we've known something has nothing to do with whether it's true or not.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Have you ever read The Lord of the Rings? It has a lot of genealogies, to rival the Bible. All made up. Nobody could invent the particular genealogies in Genesis.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yeah but in this case it's about millions of years of supposed history that didn't exist and is based on wild conjectures that can't ever come up to the level of proof of the other sciences behind the phenomena you mention. The historical sciences are all supported only by imagination unlike the hard sciences.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
they don't rival the Bible.
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