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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1093 of 1198 (841072)
10-07-2018 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Phat
10-07-2018 2:47 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community.
That's what the rich man said to Jesus.
But it isn't about trusting people. In your case, it should be about trusting God.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 10-07-2018 2:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1096 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 3:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1095 of 1198 (841075)
10-07-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1094 by Faith
10-07-2018 3:16 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.
Fixed.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1094 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 3:16 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1097 of 1198 (841124)
10-08-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1096 by Phat
10-08-2018 3:10 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
You can't honestly use that argument since you, in fact, do not believe God exists.
My belief or lack of belief has nothing to do with the consistency of your beliefs. You yourself can point out plot holes in The Lord of the Rings whether you believe the story is real or not.
If you are true to your own beliefs, you couldn't very well charge me with trusting One whom you have no evidence exists.
I'm charging you with not trusting the One you claim to commune with. Your claims are inconsistent.
You're like the little old lady and the flood. She claimed to trust God to take care of her - but when He sent help in the form of a policeman, a boat and a helicopter, she rejected His help. Similarly, you claim to trust God but when He asks you to let go of your house and get into the boat, you reject Him.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1096 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 3:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1099 of 1198 (841145)
10-08-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by Phat
10-08-2018 1:10 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
My "copout" as you will label it is to assert that we have nothing in common with the lifestyle, situation, and experience of that group and are not automatically charged to do what the words say.
The point is that maybe your lifestyle should be more like theirs.
Phat writes:
Who is charging me?
If Jesus is alive and communing with you, wouldn't that be Him?
Phat writes:
What makes you so sure that this message is applicable to us today?
Because it's a good message, based on the reality of our social nature instead of on the greed that Jesus preached against.
Phat writes:
You have every right to believe it if you choose, but why recruit me?
If you're going to flood every thread with, "I believe... I believe... I believe..." I'm going to question the validity of your belief. If you don't start the conversation, you won't see me starting it. I don't think I've ever started a thread to "recruit" you. (For that matter, I don't know if I've ever started a thread at all.)
Phat writes:
What I am saying is that you as a critic have no credentials nor authority to charge me with following words that have meaning to you in the context of humanism and socialist practice while still saying that you see no evidence that the Jesus in the story was once alive, died, and was raised again.
That's the problem right there. Credentials and authority are worthless here. Ask an airline pilot for credentials. I don't need any credentials to question your logic. I don't need to believe in Santa Claus to question the logic of belief in Santa Claus.
Phat writes:
You simply can't use Biblical logic to justify modern humanist socialist principles.
I certainly can, I have and I will continue to do so. It's one case where the Bible happens to be right.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1100 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1101 of 1198 (841149)
10-08-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by Phat
10-08-2018 1:35 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
There is no group I can trust as much as the group in Acts purportedly trusted one another.
You keep saying that. I'm going to give you the same answer as always: If you don't do what Jesus told you to do, it's Jesus that you don't trust.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by Phat, posted 10-08-2018 1:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1102 by Phat, posted 10-09-2018 2:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1103 of 1198 (841210)
10-09-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1102 by Phat
10-09-2018 2:56 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
You always maintained that we have to build our own ark. By the same token, we have to responsibly save for our own retirement.
No, those are separate concepts. We have to build our own ark to save ourselves from God. We do NOT have to save a big pile of money in defiance of Jesus' instructions.
Phat writes:
Jesus won't magically drop money or a free house in your lap...
Wrong. He fed people in Judea all the time. (And by the way, He made wine too. He wasn't as finicky as you about how people used His "spare change".)
Phat writes:
... nor will the socialists provide you with any more than a cot in a shelter with perhaps one meal.
Wrong. You should be banned from using the word "socialist" until you get the first inkling of a clue about what it means. Even your own right-wing government does more than that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1102 by Phat, posted 10-09-2018 2:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1104 by Phat, posted 10-10-2018 4:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1105 of 1198 (841265)
10-10-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Phat
10-10-2018 4:10 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
I don't believe that Jesus intended everybody to leave their families and homes and wander across the land as He and His Disciples did.
I know. You throw out the message and keep the envellope.
Phat writes:
You are free to interpret it differently...
Well, the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) apparently interpreted it the way I do instead of in the self-serving way that you do.
Phat writes:
...but today's modern context is much different than back then.
Then you should be working to change the context - i.e. you should be promoting socialism instead of spouting right-wing lies about it.
Phat writes:
People can do that with the excuse that they are doing Gods Will but many simply escape their own lack of discipline at saving money.
People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.
Phat writes:
Pretty good for a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus.
In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Phat, posted 10-10-2018 4:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1107 of 1198 (841325)
10-11-2018 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1106 by Phat
10-11-2018 12:31 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
And you embrace the message even though you don't believe in any divine messenger...
You say that as if it was a bad thing.
Yes, I have said explicitly that the envellope is not important.
Phat writes:
... because you want to promote socialism....
No, I embrace socialism because socialism is the responsible way for a social species to approach social issues. The fact that Jesus embraced socialism is coincidental. If he had been wrong about that, I would point out where He was wrong.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.
More correctly you mean that people can use any excuse for rejecting modern socialism.
No, what I said was correct. I told you you should stop using the word "socialism" until you understand what it means. It isn't just a swear-word for right-wing fanatics.
Phat writes:
You don't believe that Jesus even existed except as a character in a book.
In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1106 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 12:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1111 of 1198 (841359)
10-11-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1110 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:09 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
What I am against is ringos idea that "giving everything away" is somehow justifiable and encouraged.
If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take? If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?
Phat writes:
He uses Jesus to hammer the point home to Christians.
Pardon me for thinking that Christians might want to do what Jesus told them to do.
Phat writes:
Methinks that his "message" is not what modern socialism would advocate.
So now you're using modern socialism to cop out of following Jesus? You've come a long way, baby.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1110 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:32 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1121 by Phat, posted 10-13-2018 2:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1114 of 1198 (841362)
10-11-2018 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1113 by Phat
10-11-2018 3:32 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense.
You have it backwards. The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it. The envellope that it came in is what's irrelevant. You know that. Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that you don't?
Phat writes:
It takes hearing from Him now.
But you can't demonstrate that you are hearing from Him now.
Phat writes:
Show me how I am not following Jesus.
Been there, done that. You're not doing what His followers did.
Phat writes:
I listen to my conscience and not any cardboard sign nor forlorn character on a corner.
Maybe you should turn up the volume on your conscience.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by Phat, posted 10-11-2018 3:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1116 of 1198 (841418)
10-12-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Phat
10-12-2018 3:56 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
Which message in particular? The books have more than one.
Jesus seemed to think there was only one:
quote:
Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 3:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1117 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1118 of 1198 (841421)
10-12-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1117 by Phat
10-12-2018 4:18 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
The only problem is that sometimes I abuse myself.
He said love your neighbour as you love yourself, not treat your neighbour as you treat yourself. You don't get to pass on the abuse. You're supposed to put your best foot forward.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1117 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1119 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:34 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1120 of 1198 (841424)
10-12-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1119 by Phat
10-12-2018 4:34 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Phat writes:
Do you believe we should sell our homes to help our neighbors? If everyone did that we would all be homeless.
Do you think all of the members of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) were homeless?
Phat writes:
Or do you believe that "the state" should own all homes?
I think the state should provide homes for people who need them. The voluntary charities that fundamentalists tout are failing miserably to do that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1119 by Phat, posted 10-12-2018 4:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1122 of 1198 (841482)
10-13-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Phat
10-13-2018 2:58 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Phat writes:
Because for one thing, you among all whom I have talked to on these matters are the only one who essentially deems the messenger as irrelavant...little more than an envelope.
On the contrary, any atheist will tell you the same thing, and any Muslim, etc. will tell you that your messenger is irrelevant.
Phat writes:
Every other source that I listen to emphasizes Christ.
Then you should broaden your horizons.
Phat writes:
I noticed you didn't comment on the two articles that I linked you to in post# 1115. They do make a point on using Jesus to advocate modern left-leaning principles.
They make an apologetic point, not a good one.
Phat writes:
Why would I even entertain any idea from you regarding what it "takes" to get saved?
Because the idea comes directly from the Bible, in the exact words of the One that you purport to follow. Because that same Bible is the only source you have for even the existence of the One you purport to follow.
Phat writes:
Its the envelope that does the saving...not the message...
How can you even say that with a straight face? Can you really not see how utterly, utterly stupid that is? Try telling the phone company to shove their bill and just send you the envellope.
Phat writes:
...ever try sharing a room with several people? Uncomfortable, isn't it!
I grew up with three bothers in one bedroom. It has its good and bad points. I would certainly rather do that than watch my brother sleeping in the gutter.
Phat writes:
If for the overall sake of argument you are asking me to examine my conscience and be more generous, I won't argue the point--I agree.
I wouldn't suggest that you're not generous enough. That's between you and your conscience. But I don't like to see your conscience being over-ridden by right-wing politics or Faith-like perverted theology.
Phat writes:
If you are asking me to either sell my house or share my resources with more people, I feel you are asking too much.
I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just pointing out what Jesus said.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Phat, posted 10-13-2018 2:58 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1123 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1125 of 1198 (841517)
10-14-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1123 by Phat
10-14-2018 2:49 AM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Phat writes:
...and I dont need evidence to be convinced
But you're actively rejecting the evidence.
You claim to believe in Jesus but the only evidence we have of what Jesus thought is in the Bible. You can make up whatever woo-God you like but you shouldn't be linking Jesus to it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1123 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1126 by Phat, posted 10-14-2018 2:58 PM ringo has replied

  
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