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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
That depends on how you define "day". Day is not a standard unit of time. What is the duration of a day and what determines the length of that duration?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Pedantically, "day" is a non-SI unit that is accepted for use with SI units. https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/outside.Html.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jon,
Jon writes: The choice of what to measure and how to divide up that measurement is purely arbitrary. So time that we have been talking about is a concept of man that he has devised to measure the duration between events in existence. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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creation Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 654 Joined: |
The moon doesn't have a watch either, but takes so much time to orbit. The issue of exactly how poor little mankind marks time is not so important. It still exists the same. To claim time is nothing but the way man marks time is actually foolish.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi creation,
creation writes: The moon doesn't have a watch either, but takes so much time to orbit. The issue of exactly how poor little mankind marks time is not so important. It still exists the same. To claim time is nothing but the way man marks time is actually foolish. Why would the moon need a watch? It is in it's orbit around the earth, and has nothing to do with the revolution of the earth relative to the sun. How do you mark time? Time is what is used to measure duration between events in eternity. Time does not exist. It is not an object, that can be measured. It is not a dimension of the universe. If it was you should be able to measure it with length, width, height or depth. But what we call time is what we use to measure the duration between events in the universe (existence).
quote:definition of time - Google Search quote: quote: quote:Time standard - Wikipedia My conclusions: There is existence.There are events in this existence. These events have duration between them. We measure this duration with a human invention called time. Time is a concept developed by mankind to measure the duration between events in existence (eternity). Since it is man's concept he gets to determine what that concept is based upon. There are several mentioned above. Most of which are based upon the rotation on the earth relative to the sun or stars. If you got a better definition share it with us. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
So time that we have been talking about is a concept of man that he has devised to measure the duration between events in existence.
No, time exists. The units in which we choose to measure it are arbitrary. As are all the other fundamental units we use; length, mass, electric current, temperature, amount of a substance (Avogadro's number), and luminous intensity. The map (seconds, minutes, hours,...) is not the territory (time) Edited by JonF, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: They didn't "get" red from anywhere because red is not a thing that can be got. They appear red because they reflect light in the part of the spectrum that our eyes and brains call "red". Different substances appear as different colors because their different chemical structures reflect different wavelengths of light. Shine a different wavelength on it and it will no longer appear red, so there can not be any inherent red thing in it. If it is all in my eye seeing the red in the red ochres how do they make red dye out of red ochres that can make a white piece of cloth look like it is red? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
As I said, under different lighting conditions it won't always appear as red. Shine a red light on a white coth and your eye/brain will see the same red. There is no "red" in the cloth. "Red" is the length of the light wave, a property of the light. If it is all in my eye seeing the red in the red ochres how do they make red dye out of red ochres that can make a white piece of cloth look like it is red?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
ICANT writes: It is not a dimension of the universe. If it was you should be able to measure it with length, width, height or depth. So, the 4 dimensions are length, width, height and depth? I think you forgot here, now, then, and over there. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Blonde joke:
ICANT says to his blonde assistant, "We need to measure the height of this flagpole but I can't figure out how to get up there." The blonde takes a wrench, undoes a couple of bolts and lays the flagpole down on the ground. Then she takes a tape measure, stretches it out and announces, "Fourteen feet and eight inches." ICANT stands there shaking his head, "Typical blonde. I ask her for the height and she gives me the length."And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jon,
Jon writes: No, it's difficult to measure the rotation of the Earth and it changes back and forth too much to be useful in precise measurementsBTW, the earth rotates in a little less than 24 hours relative to the Sun because of its orbital motion. I don't see any problem in determining the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. You just use the equator as the point for comparison. I think it is 3 minutes less than 24 hours.
Jon writes: The units of time are arbitrarily chosen for convenience. The Egyptians used the base 12 number rather than our base 10 number as they liked the base 12. Base 12 has a larger number of integer factors than 10. They are 12/6=2, 12/4=3, 12/3=4, 12/2=6, while 10/5=2 and 10/2=5 are all there are for the number 10). The Egyptians only divided the light period and dark period into 24 hours. Twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness. The first minute and second minute began to be used in 150 AD. Minutes and seconds was not used until the first mechanical clocks that displayed minutes appeared near the end of the 16th century. But even today some time pieces do not display seconds. Where I live we have 14 hours 6 minutes and 49 seconds of light on the longest day of the year. On the shortest day of the year we have 10 hrs 10 minutes and 53 seconds of light. To the Egyptians that would have been 12 hrs of light and 12 hrs of darkness. So their hours did not contain 60 minutes every hour. This changed in 1967, when the second was redefined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 energy transitions of the cesium atom. But this created a problem, in order to keep atomic time in agreement with astronomical time, leap seconds occasionally must be added to UTC. Time would become useless if the clock's did not match reality. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jon,
Jon writes: If the duration of a day is based on sunrise and sunset, the duration varies from zero to infinity. The length is determined by the Earth's rotation, its axial tilt, where the Earth is in its orbit, and where you are on the Earth. The earth revolves at near 1,000 mph at a point near the equator. This line is the only one that would take the most duration in the revolution. As you move away from the equator either north or south the amount of time and speed would reduce. Therefore to talk about a 24 hour day you have to talk about what transpires at or near the equator. So what is the problem with determining the duration of a day? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jon,
Jon writes: What Man knows about the origin of the universe and the origin of life fills many, many books. Far better writers than I have explained it in various levels of detail. I'm not going to try to better their efforts in a relatively brief posting. I'll be glad to dig up some links if you are interested. So you don't know. cavediver and Son Goku both have stated on this web site "we don't know". There is no scientific book that address the origin of the universe or life. If you know of one I would like a reference. There have been proposals put forward with no evidence.Those proposals have no more weight than the Bible story of creation. In fact I believe they have a lot less because the Bible does make prediction that has been discovered l,000's of years after they were made. Those proposals have nothing. But maybe you have something new you can point me too. ABE Have you read Message 1 If not why not discuss it with me I noticed you have not replided to it. God Bless, Edited by ICANT, : Add link"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: That depends on how you define "day". Day is not a standard unit of time. I prefer God's definition found in Genesis 1:5.
quote: A period of light was called Day.The evening of that light period and the following dark period were declared Day one. So my definition of Day would be a light period. Also a light period followed by a dark period would be called a day. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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JonF Member (Idle past 194 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I don't see any problem in determining the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. You just use the equator as the point for comparison
So, I'm in a lab in Sheboygan, Wisconsin and running an experiment that requires timing to femtosecond precision. How do I ensure my femtosecond is exactly everyone else's femtosecond. (This sort of thing happens, except for the location. It's difficult to do using atomic clocks because you have to account for relativistic effects from differences in altitude and velocity). Oh, and, that equator is the celestial equator, not the Earth's equator.
The Egyptians used the base 12 number rather than our base 10 number as they liked the base 12.
Thank you for acknowledging that I am correct saying that the choice of units is arbitrary and done for convenience. BTW, 60 comes from the Babylonians. It has more divisors than 10 or 12. While looking stuff up I found Wikipedia: hour. It mentions the ancient Chinese system of dividing the day into 100 marks, the Southeast Asian system of four quarters in the day and each divided into six hours (so the we would call their first hour of the first day quarter our 7 AM), and the Hindus in India:
quote: The rest of what you write is true but irrelevant to the arbitrariness of our choices of units. Except:
To the Egyptians that would have been 12 hrs of light and 12 hrs of darkness. So their hours did not contain 60 minutes every hour.
The variable-length hour was discarded long, long ago except for some Jewish ceremonial applications. The history of the second is more complex than that. This changed in 1967, when the second was redefined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 energy transitions of the cesium atom. Seconds first appeared in the mechanical clocks of the late 16th century. Accurate measurement of seconds didn't show up until Huygens' pendulum clock in the mid-17th century. Nobody cared much about precise and available standards until the 19th century, but by then the second was pretty widely recognized as 1/86,400 of a mean solar day. This was formalized in 1940. But even then better standards were desirable. In 1956 the second was defined as 1/31,556,925.9747 of the tropical year for 1900 January 0 at 12 hours ephemeris time because the Earth's orbit around the Sun is more stable than the Earth's rotation, and this was adopted internationally in 1960. Then there was the current definition seven years later. Some day the second will probably be redefined by optical lattice clocks. There are actually three slightly different systems in use; which one you use is decided by convenience. From Wikipedia's article on seconds :
quote:
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