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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what the rich man said to Jesus. In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community. But it isn't about trusting people. In your case, it should be about trusting God. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Fixed. I don't know who you are quoting, but it isn't me.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
My belief or lack of belief has nothing to do with the consistency of your beliefs. You yourself can point out plot holes in The Lord of the Rings whether you believe the story is real or not.
You can't honestly use that argument since you, in fact, do not believe God exists. If you are true to your own beliefs, you couldn't very well charge me with trusting One whom you have no evidence exists.
I'm charging you with not trusting the One you claim to commune with. Your claims are inconsistent. You're like the little old lady and the flood. She claimed to trust God to take care of her - but when He sent help in the form of a policeman, a boat and a helicopter, she rejected His help. Similarly, you claim to trust God but when He asks you to let go of your house and get into the boat, you reject Him.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The point is that maybe your lifestyle should be more like theirs.
My "copout" as you will label it is to assert that we have nothing in common with the lifestyle, situation, and experience of that group and are not automatically charged to do what the words say. Phat writes:
If Jesus is alive and communing with you, wouldn't that be Him?
Who is charging me? Phat writes:
Because it's a good message, based on the reality of our social nature instead of on the greed that Jesus preached against.
What makes you so sure that this message is applicable to us today? Phat writes:
If you're going to flood every thread with, "I believe... I believe... I believe..." I'm going to question the validity of your belief. If you don't start the conversation, you won't see me starting it. I don't think I've ever started a thread to "recruit" you. (For that matter, I don't know if I've ever started a thread at all.)
You have every right to believe it if you choose, but why recruit me? Phat writes:
That's the problem right there. Credentials and authority are worthless here. Ask an airline pilot for credentials. I don't need any credentials to question your logic. I don't need to believe in Santa Claus to question the logic of belief in Santa Claus.
What I am saying is that you as a critic have no credentials nor authority to charge me with following words that have meaning to you in the context of humanism and socialist practice while still saying that you see no evidence that the Jesus in the story was once alive, died, and was raised again. Phat writes:
I certainly can, I have and I will continue to do so. It's one case where the Bible happens to be right. You simply can't use Biblical logic to justify modern humanist socialist principles.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You keep saying that. I'm going to give you the same answer as always: If you don't do what Jesus told you to do, it's Jesus that you don't trust. There is no group I can trust as much as the group in Acts purportedly trusted one another.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, those are separate concepts. We have to build our own ark to save ourselves from God. We do NOT have to save a big pile of money in defiance of Jesus' instructions.
You always maintained that we have to build our own ark. By the same token, we have to responsibly save for our own retirement. Phat writes:
Wrong. He fed people in Judea all the time. (And by the way, He made wine too. He wasn't as finicky as you about how people used His "spare change".)
Jesus won't magically drop money or a free house in your lap... Phat writes:
Wrong. You should be banned from using the word "socialist" until you get the first inkling of a clue about what it means. Even your own right-wing government does more than that. ... nor will the socialists provide you with any more than a cot in a shelter with perhaps one meal.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I know. You throw out the message and keep the envellope.
I don't believe that Jesus intended everybody to leave their families and homes and wander across the land as He and His Disciples did. Phat writes:
Well, the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) apparently interpreted it the way I do instead of in the self-serving way that you do.
You are free to interpret it differently... Phat writes:
Then you should be working to change the context - i.e. you should be promoting socialism instead of spouting right-wing lies about it.
...but today's modern context is much different than back then. Phat writes:
People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.
People can do that with the excuse that they are doing Gods Will but many simply escape their own lack of discipline at saving money. Phat writes:
In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message. Pretty good for a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You say that as if it was a bad thing. And you embrace the message even though you don't believe in any divine messenger... Yes, I have said explicitly that the envellope is not important.
Phat writes:
No, I embrace socialism because socialism is the responsible way for a social species to approach social issues. The fact that Jesus embraced socialism is coincidental. If he had been wrong about that, I would point out where He was wrong.
... because you want to promote socialism.... Phat writes:
No, what I said was correct. I told you you should stop using the word "socialism" until you understand what it means. It isn't just a swear-word for right-wing fanatics.
ringo writes:
More correctly you mean that people can use any excuse for rejecting modern socialism. People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message. Phat writes:
In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message. You don't believe that Jesus even existed except as a character in a book.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take? If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?
What I am against is ringos idea that "giving everything away" is somehow justifiable and encouraged. Phat writes:
Pardon me for thinking that Christians might want to do what Jesus told them to do.
He uses Jesus to hammer the point home to Christians. Phat writes:
So now you're using modern socialism to cop out of following Jesus? You've come a long way, baby. Methinks that his "message" is not what modern socialism would advocate.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You have it backwards. The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it. The envellope that it came in is what's irrelevant. You know that. Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that you don't?
To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense. Phat writes:
But you can't demonstrate that you are hearing from Him now.
It takes hearing from Him now. Phat writes:
Been there, done that. You're not doing what His followers did.
Show me how I am not following Jesus. Phat writes:
Maybe you should turn up the volume on your conscience. I listen to my conscience and not any cardboard sign nor forlorn character on a corner.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Jesus seemed to think there was only one:
Which message in particular? The books have more than one.quote: And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
He said love your neighbour as you love yourself, not treat your neighbour as you treat yourself. You don't get to pass on the abuse. You're supposed to put your best foot forward. The only problem is that sometimes I abuse myself.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Do you think all of the members of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) were homeless?
Do you believe we should sell our homes to help our neighbors? If everyone did that we would all be homeless. Phat writes:
I think the state should provide homes for people who need them. The voluntary charities that fundamentalists tout are failing miserably to do that. Or do you believe that "the state" should own all homes?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
On the contrary, any atheist will tell you the same thing, and any Muslim, etc. will tell you that your messenger is irrelevant.
Because for one thing, you among all whom I have talked to on these matters are the only one who essentially deems the messenger as irrelavant...little more than an envelope. Phat writes:
Then you should broaden your horizons.
Every other source that I listen to emphasizes Christ. Phat writes:
They make an apologetic point, not a good one.
I noticed you didn't comment on the two articles that I linked you to in post# 1115. They do make a point on using Jesus to advocate modern left-leaning principles. Phat writes:
Because the idea comes directly from the Bible, in the exact words of the One that you purport to follow. Because that same Bible is the only source you have for even the existence of the One you purport to follow.
Why would I even entertain any idea from you regarding what it "takes" to get saved? Phat writes:
How can you even say that with a straight face? Can you really not see how utterly, utterly stupid that is? Try telling the phone company to shove their bill and just send you the envellope.
Its the envelope that does the saving...not the message... Phat writes:
I grew up with three bothers in one bedroom. It has its good and bad points. I would certainly rather do that than watch my brother sleeping in the gutter.
...ever try sharing a room with several people? Uncomfortable, isn't it! Phat writes:
I wouldn't suggest that you're not generous enough. That's between you and your conscience. But I don't like to see your conscience being over-ridden by right-wing politics or Faith-like perverted theology.
If for the overall sake of argument you are asking me to examine my conscience and be more generous, I won't argue the point--I agree. Phat writes:
I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm just pointing out what Jesus said. If you are asking me to either sell my house or share my resources with more people, I feel you are asking too much.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But you're actively rejecting the evidence. ...and I dont need evidence to be convinced You claim to believe in Jesus but the only evidence we have of what Jesus thought is in the Bible. You can make up whatever woo-God you like but you shouldn't be linking Jesus to it.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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