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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 562 of 1677 (841347)
10-11-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 558 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:34 PM


Re: loving God
quote:
I can't be wrong about this because God cannot commit sin and what is being called genocide is in fact justice. We don't call the death penalty homicide, nor should we call it genocide.
wikipedia expressly lists capital punishment as an example of homicide. Indeed the general definition the killing of one person by another clearly does include executions.
When we have, not an orderly execution, but a military force exterminating men, women and children the idea that we should not call it genocide seems even further fetched.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:52 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 567 of 1677 (841353)
10-11-2018 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by Faith
10-11-2018 2:52 PM


Re: loving God
quote:
All I'm trying to do is get the standard idea about this recognized.
The standard idea is that it is genocide.
quote:
You want to change definitions and fool around with words in such a way as to obscure my simple point that God cannot be wrong or unjust.
No. I am just objecting to your attempts to change definitions and fool about with words. I am not at this point arguing about whether the genocide was justified or not.
quote:
I'm not insisting that you agree with me, but I am insisting that you stop confusing things so that my opinion can't even be correctly stated.
There is no confusion in pointing out that - according to the Bible - God ordered genocide. That is what it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 2:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 570 of 1677 (841358)
10-11-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 568 by caffeine
10-11-2018 3:04 PM


Genocide - clearing up the confusion
We do not say that genocide is wiping out a human population - but only if it is wrong.
We say that genocide is wiping out a human population - and that is wrong.
That is why trying to avoid the use of the word genocide is nothing more than spin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by caffeine, posted 10-11-2018 3:04 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:21 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 576 of 1677 (841385)
10-12-2018 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by Faith
10-11-2018 7:21 PM


Re: Genocide - clearing up the confusion
quote:
God is perfect. He can do no wrong. Like it or not it is justice when He wipes out a tribe of people, and we should learn from it what God considers deserving of such punishment because some nations are ripe for it today.
In other words - solely because the Bible says that God is guilty of ordering genocide - you claim that genocide can be a good thing. But you don’t offer any real justification. More your statement even suggests that you want some nations to be exterminated.
quote:
In any case the word "genocide" has criminal connotations, therefore it does not apply.
And you remain confused because you ignore the points that have been raised. I repeat my point. Genocide does not merely have criminal connotations - the act of genocide has been decreed a crime. And by that definition God is - according to the Bible guilty. It’s an open and shut case.
Using spin to try and obscure the facts is not honest.

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 Message 571 by Faith, posted 10-11-2018 7:21 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 623 of 1677 (841608)
10-16-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
10-16-2018 9:58 AM


Calvinism denies God’s Justice
It is not true - even according to the Bible, that ills only befall those who deserve them. Not only does Job suffer through no fault of his own, his children are slain simply to add to his suffering.
In Exodus God manipulates the Pharaoh, so the he will not let the Israelites go, providing a pretext for the Plagues.
But Calvinism makes it worse. If God is in all our decisions - all of them chosen by God in advance, just as Phaorah’s decisions were, then all the supposed justifications for judgement are mere pretexts. How can we condemn the followers of Al Qaeda if their actions were dictated by God? God cannot justly punish us for what he has caused us to do. Let us not forget that according to Calvin God arranged the Fall and if we are God’s enemies, and prone to sin it is His doing and not ours. Even Adam and Eve are less responsible for it than God - and no other human can be blamed for it.
There is no justice in the guiltiest of them all sitting in judgement over the rest.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 9:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:15 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 625 of 1677 (841612)
10-16-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Faith
10-16-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
You only address the first sentence and even there you fail.
No, the discussion is not limited to judgement on a nation. You have made the point that ALL bad things are God’s doing. And if God chooses to inflict ills on people that do not deserve it - as Job did not - then, God is neither just nor good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:32 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 627 of 1677 (841614)
10-16-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Faith
10-16-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
I don't claim to be good at discussing it, just certain that the evils you ascribe to Calvinism and to God are false
Presumably you mean the evils that Calvinism ascribes to God.
quote:
The difficulty is in the fact that God is so much higher than we, encompasses absolutely everything, that we are all "in" Him all the time and so on.
Not at all. That isn’t even an issue. These are simple matters. If God controls everything then God is responsible for everything. If God controls our decisions then - however it is done, even if our decisions are also free - God is more responsible for them than we are. To manipulate people into doing wrong and then to punish them for it is obviously wrong.
quote:
Nobody likes the idea of judgment,
Maybe. But I like the idea that judgement is a mere pretext for inflicting suffering even less.
quote:
...we'd rather think humanity is "good." But that isn't what the Bible says, it says we are fallen, which means prone to sin, prone to disobey God, and therefore always under God's wrath and subject to judgment.
More accurately:
We’d rather think of God is good. But that isn’t What Calvin said. Calvin says that God made humanity fall, made us prone to sin, makes us disobey Him. And then he gets angry at us and punishes us for the things he made us do.
quote:
Jesus came to save us from that but of course if you deny it all there is nothing to be saved from and you can go on accusing Christians of believing in an evil God.
It is not I that says that God caused the Fall. It is not I that says that God controls literally everything. It is not even I that talks of God judging us. I don’t need to accuse Calvinists of believing in an evil God. It’s implicit in their beliefs.
quote:
Humility would mean owning that it is WE who are at fault, not God
Humility then would be saying that humans make their own decisions, decisions which may be contrary to God’s will. Even claiming true libertarian free will. That is the only way that we can be less at fault than God.
quote:
That would also be safer than shaking your fist at God, which only brings more wrath on us.
And yet I am not accusing God of anything. I am not a Calvinist. Do you really think that God would like being described as a cruel and unjust tyrant, even if those claims are only implicit ? And do you think the moral cowardice in not recognising those implicit accusations is pleasing to Him ? If there is a real God he might be pleased that I challenge your blasphemy. Why not ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 629 of 1677 (841616)
10-16-2018 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Faith
10-16-2018 4:34 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
Which is absolutely and completrely wrong.
Obviously it is not.
quote:
The fact is that although God is in charge of everything He is NOT responsible for what WE choose to do.
If God controls something - not just could control something but actually does - then He IS responsible for it. That is how responsibility works.
quote:
The words "control" and "manipulate" are yours, not the Bible's
I’m not the one who claims that Calvinism is absolutely Biblical. In fact I deny it. But if our decisions are by God’s Will - and given God’s power, knowledge and role in creating everything it’s really hard to avoid the conclusion that God is in complete control. Unless you are prepared to invoke libertarian Free Will, outside even God’s control - but I already pointed that out.
quote:
And your insistence on judging God from your own finite fleshly fallen mind is WAY wrong.
I’m not judging God. I am just pointing out the obvious implications of your beliefs. It is not my fault that you depict God as evil, and complaining that I draw attention to the fact is a pretty feeble objection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 632 of 1677 (841619)
10-16-2018 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by Straggler
10-16-2018 4:53 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
It’s even worse when God is responsible for the adultery in the first place. Which leads us to the uncomfortable thought that maybe the baby-killing is the real point and adultery is just an excuse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2018 4:53 PM Straggler has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 633 of 1677 (841620)
10-16-2018 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
10-16-2018 4:57 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
So shoot me already. Get it over with. All you moralistic judgmental self-righteous know-it-alls who refuse to understand any of this just do your damnedest and get rid of all of us who see things the way I'm trying to describe.
You are projecting, Faith. Just because we point out the truths you refuse to see hardly makes us want to get rid of you.
quote:
Of COURSE I see how difficult this is for you, you're all stubborn people who refuse to try to learn something that is beyond you or beyond any of us.
Then try explaining rather than spouting nonsense
quote:
Line us up and shoot us.
If you can’t stand the implications of your own beliefs that is entirely your problem. If you love the darkness so much, stay out of the light.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 641 of 1677 (841628)
10-17-2018 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 635 by Faith
10-16-2018 6:29 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
Just more evidence of how utterly incorrigibly self-righteously wrong you are and everybody else here and how utterly futile and ugly is discussion on this subject.
And yet your only argument is the assertion that it is hard to understand. Without even a hint as to how the obvious problem could be resolved. It isn’t exactly a convincing argument.
The standard for responsibility is basic and simple. Power or knowledge can only increase responsibility, not reduce it power by opening other possible courses of action, knowledge offering that, as well as better understanding of the consequences. The only thing that removes it is strong external compulsion or serious mental problems. Neither of which seem likely to apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 6:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 646 of 1677 (841634)
10-17-2018 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 643 by Faith
10-17-2018 6:24 AM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
If you have so many great theologians on your side it shouldn’t be hard for you to find a decent answer to this rather obvious problem.
Unless there isn’t one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 6:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 7:45 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 648 of 1677 (841636)
10-17-2018 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by Faith
10-17-2018 7:45 AM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
Your lack of confidence in your great theologians is noted.
I guess we leave it there then, without even an attempt at a rational response from you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 7:45 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 658 of 1677 (841648)
10-17-2018 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by Faith
10-17-2018 8:18 AM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
Well, Phat, I think it's the best I can do and I'm sorry if it just seems like a bunch of meaningless rants and isn't explaining anything.
Given the complete absence of anything which could be considered an attempt at explanation your posts certainly aren’t explaining anything. And I don’t see how you could think it possible that they might.
If you can’t do better - and honestly admitting that you don’t have a rational answer would be a LOT better - then You really ought to admit that the criticisms that come your way do have a basis in fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by Faith, posted 10-17-2018 8:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 715 of 1677 (842395)
10-30-2018 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 713 by Faith
10-30-2018 2:59 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
quote:
Peter was very clear that they had the right to the land and its money so they had every right to do with it whatever they wanted to do and that being the case they could not be punished for that. You do have to read in context.
No. It IS important to read it in context. - but it seems you still refuse to do that.
In the actual text Peter makes it clear that it was WRONG of them to hold back part of the money and that they had no excuse for ho,ding back part of them money. And why should they not be punished for doing wrong ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 10-30-2018 2:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 10-31-2018 11:44 AM PaulK has replied

  
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