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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: wikipedia expressly lists capital punishment as an example of homicide. Indeed the general definition the killing of one person by another clearly does include executions. When we have, not an orderly execution, but a military force exterminating men, women and children the idea that we should not call it genocide seems even further fetched.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: The standard idea is that it is genocide.
quote: No. I am just objecting to your attempts to change definitions and fool about with words. I am not at this point arguing about whether the genocide was justified or not.
quote: There is no confusion in pointing out that - according to the Bible - God ordered genocide. That is what it says.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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We do not say that genocide is wiping out a human population - but only if it is wrong.
We say that genocide is wiping out a human population - and that is wrong. That is why trying to avoid the use of the word genocide is nothing more than spin.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In other words - solely because the Bible says that God is guilty of ordering genocide - you claim that genocide can be a good thing. But you don’t offer any real justification. More your statement even suggests that you want some nations to be exterminated.
quote: And you remain confused because you ignore the points that have been raised. I repeat my point. Genocide does not merely have criminal connotations - the act of genocide has been decreed a crime. And by that definition God is - according to the Bible guilty. It’s an open and shut case. Using spin to try and obscure the facts is not honest.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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It is not true - even according to the Bible, that ills only befall those who deserve them. Not only does Job suffer through no fault of his own, his children are slain simply to add to his suffering.
In Exodus God manipulates the Pharaoh, so the he will not let the Israelites go, providing a pretext for the Plagues. But Calvinism makes it worse. If God is in all our decisions - all of them chosen by God in advance, just as Phaorah’s decisions were, then all the supposed justifications for judgement are mere pretexts. How can we condemn the followers of Al Qaeda if their actions were dictated by God? God cannot justly punish us for what he has caused us to do. Let us not forget that according to Calvin God arranged the Fall and if we are God’s enemies, and prone to sin it is His doing and not ours. Even Adam and Eve are less responsible for it than God - and no other human can be blamed for it. There is no justice in the guiltiest of them all sitting in judgement over the rest. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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You only address the first sentence and even there you fail.
No, the discussion is not limited to judgement on a nation. You have made the point that ALL bad things are God’s doing. And if God chooses to inflict ills on people that do not deserve it - as Job did not - then, God is neither just nor good.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Presumably you mean the evils that Calvinism ascribes to God.
quote: Not at all. That isn’t even an issue. These are simple matters. If God controls everything then God is responsible for everything. If God controls our decisions then - however it is done, even if our decisions are also free - God is more responsible for them than we are. To manipulate people into doing wrong and then to punish them for it is obviously wrong.
quote: Maybe. But I like the idea that judgement is a mere pretext for inflicting suffering even less.
quote: More accurately: We’d rather think of God is good. But that isn’t What Calvin said. Calvin says that God made humanity fall, made us prone to sin, makes us disobey Him. And then he gets angry at us and punishes us for the things he made us do.
quote: It is not I that says that God caused the Fall. It is not I that says that God controls literally everything. It is not even I that talks of God judging us. I don’t need to accuse Calvinists of believing in an evil God. It’s implicit in their beliefs.
quote: Humility then would be saying that humans make their own decisions, decisions which may be contrary to God’s will. Even claiming true libertarian free will. That is the only way that we can be less at fault than God.
quote: And yet I am not accusing God of anything. I am not a Calvinist. Do you really think that God would like being described as a cruel and unjust tyrant, even if those claims are only implicit ? And do you think the moral cowardice in not recognising those implicit accusations is pleasing to Him ? If there is a real God he might be pleased that I challenge your blasphemy. Why not ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Obviously it is not.
quote: If God controls something - not just could control something but actually does - then He IS responsible for it. That is how responsibility works.
quote: I’m not the one who claims that Calvinism is absolutely Biblical. In fact I deny it. But if our decisions are by God’s Will - and given God’s power, knowledge and role in creating everything it’s really hard to avoid the conclusion that God is in complete control. Unless you are prepared to invoke libertarian Free Will, outside even God’s control - but I already pointed that out.
quote: I’m not judging God. I am just pointing out the obvious implications of your beliefs. It is not my fault that you depict God as evil, and complaining that I draw attention to the fact is a pretty feeble objection.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
It’s even worse when God is responsible for the adultery in the first place. Which leads us to the uncomfortable thought that maybe the baby-killing is the real point and adultery is just an excuse.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: You are projecting, Faith. Just because we point out the truths you refuse to see hardly makes us want to get rid of you.
quote: Then try explaining rather than spouting nonsense
quote: If you can’t stand the implications of your own beliefs that is entirely your problem. If you love the darkness so much, stay out of the light..
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And yet your only argument is the assertion that it is hard to understand. Without even a hint as to how the obvious problem could be resolved. It isn’t exactly a convincing argument. The standard for responsibility is basic and simple. Power or knowledge can only increase responsibility, not reduce it power by opening other possible courses of action, knowledge offering that, as well as better understanding of the consequences. The only thing that removes it is strong external compulsion or serious mental problems. Neither of which seem likely to apply.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
If you have so many great theologians on your side it shouldn’t be hard for you to find a decent answer to this rather obvious problem.
Unless there isn’t one.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Your lack of confidence in your great theologians is noted.
I guess we leave it there then, without even an attempt at a rational response from you.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Given the complete absence of anything which could be considered an attempt at explanation your posts certainly aren’t explaining anything. And I don’t see how you could think it possible that they might. If you can’t do better - and honestly admitting that you don’t have a rational answer would be a LOT better - then You really ought to admit that the criticisms that come your way do have a basis in fact.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: No. It IS important to read it in context. - but it seems you still refuse to do that. In the actual text Peter makes it clear that it was WRONG of them to hold back part of the money and that they had no excuse for ho,ding back part of them money. And why should they not be punished for doing wrong ?
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