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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1084 of 1198 (841042)
10-07-2018 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1082 by ringo
10-04-2018 3:55 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
LNA, to jaywill writes:
Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING?
ALL meaning the believers. Ananias and Saphira had the right to opt out at any time with the penalty of not remaining in the club. It would make no sense for GOD or any other authority to punish them for that. What does make sense is being punished for lying and trying to stay in the club...having one's cake and eating it too.
You believe that the message teaches the necessity of everyone giving 100% because you like the idea of a message (socialism) without the need of a messenger(Jesus or religion) and would argue that everyone needs to belong to this club as a gesture of good intentions for fellow humanity. I am arguing that anyone should have the right to opt out of any club---be it "believers" or be it "socialists" or be it "secular humanists" at any time. The lie is in claiming to belong in the club without giving 100%.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1082 by ringo, posted 10-04-2018 3:55 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1085 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:08 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1091 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1086 of 1198 (841051)
10-07-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1085 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:08 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
Faith writes:
I don't know where you got this idea that Ananias and Sapphira would have been out of the "club" had they given only part of their money but I don't see any reason to think that.
I take it by inference from the scripture. There was a definite group of people known as "the believers".
Acts 4:32 writes:
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
Thus to be a "believer" meant to give up private ownership. I would argue that anyone had a right to hold on to whatever they wanted but that in so doing they would not be part of the group since scripture makes clear the behavior of the group. The sin was in trying to hold on and lying about it in order to remain in the group.
I feel that many try and interpret this in light of a modern context of believers who are not expected to give all that they own to the cause. Ringo would argue otherwise, but he loves the idea of socialism anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1090 of 1198 (841064)
10-07-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by Faith
10-07-2018 2:41 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
He claims that he believes in "the message"...but sees no way to "know" Jesus or whether that is even important. In my defense and as a response to ringo, I will say that I don't trust people enough to give all that I have to any church or community. Christianity, as mentioned in Acts, was for the poor. They could give up all that they had without losing any material of value. Were I to give up the modest possessions which I now have, I doubt if I would have any guarantee of gaining anything of greater value by communing with society...or any current church, for that matter. ringo argues that if I am to call myself a believer I should trust the message. My response is that perhaps I am not a believer in the sense of how Acts defines a believer.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by Faith, posted 10-07-2018 2:41 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:13 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1096 of 1198 (841106)
10-08-2018 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1093 by ringo
10-07-2018 3:13 PM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
You can't honestly use that argument since you, in fact, do not believe God exists. If you are true to your own beliefs, you couldn't very well charge me with trusting One whom you have no evidence exists.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 3:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1097 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1098 of 1198 (841144)
10-08-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1097 by ringo
10-08-2018 11:44 AM


Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
OK lets run with the home analogy. If we literally believe that we modern "believers" are charged to do exactly as the believers in Acts, you have a point. My "copout" as you will label it is to assert that we have nothing in common with the lifestyle, situation, and experience of that group and are not automatically charged to do what the words say.
  • Who is charging me?
  • What makes you so sure that this message is applicable to us today? You have every right to believe it if you choose, but why recruit me?
    What I am saying is that you as a critic have no credentials nor authority to charge me with following words that have meaning to you in the context of humanism and socialist practice while still saying that you see no evidence that the Jesus in the story was once alive, died, and was raised again.
    You simply can't use Biblical logic to justify modern humanist socialist principles.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1097 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 11:44 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1099 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:23 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1100 of 1198 (841147)
    10-08-2018 1:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 1099 by ringo
    10-08-2018 1:23 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:
    ...I have and I will continue to do so.
    Well then let me spell it out. There is no group I can trust as much as the group in Acts purportedly trusted one another. I won't simply give everything up based on some lofty principle of "how we should live"...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1099 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:23 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1101 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1102 of 1198 (841199)
    10-09-2018 2:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 1101 by ringo
    10-08-2018 1:41 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    well if so thats between Him and I
    You always maintained that we have to build our own ark. By the same token, we have to responsibly save for our own retirement. Jesus won't magically drop money or a free house in your lap nor will the socialists provide you with any more than a cot in a shelter with perhaps one meal.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1101 by ringo, posted 10-08-2018 1:41 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1103 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1104 of 1198 (841253)
    10-10-2018 4:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 1103 by ringo
    10-09-2018 11:48 AM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:
    We have to build our own ark to save ourselves from God. We do NOT have to save a big pile of money in defiance of Jesus' instructions.
    I don't believe that Jesus intended everybody to leave their families and homes and wander across the land as He and His Disciples did. You are free to interpret it differently, but today's modern context is much different than back then. People can do that with the excuse that they are doing Gods Will but many simply escape their own lack of discipline at saving money. We don't need a "Big Pile"...we simply need enough to own or rent a home and have a place to hang one's hat. Common sense tells me this is rational.
    He (Jesus) wasn't as finicky as you about how people used His "spare change"
    Hey I'm all for giving spare change away. It makes sense to start each day with ten dollars and buy your food and necessities for that day...usually, most of us have a couple bucks left over...which is basicaly giving 20% to the needy. I'm sure you are quite diligent about giving. So much so that I doubt you worry enough about yourself. Pretty good for a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1103 by ringo, posted 10-09-2018 11:48 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1105 by ringo, posted 10-10-2018 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1106 of 1198 (841323)
    10-11-2018 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 1105 by ringo
    10-10-2018 12:36 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:
    I know. You throw out the message and keep the envelope.
    And you embrace the message even though you don't believe in any divine messenger because you want to promote socialism....and then try and preach at us that it(modern socialism) is essentially what Jesus would have wanted us to do!
    People can use any excuse for defying Jesus' message.
    More correctly you mean that people can use any excuse for rejecting modern socialism.
    In practical terms, I believe in Jesus more than you do. I believe in the message.
    You believe in modern socialism. You don't believe that Jesus even existed except as a character in a book.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1105 by ringo, posted 10-10-2018 12:36 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1107 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 12:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 1108 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2018 12:50 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1109 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1110 of 1198 (841357)
    10-11-2018 3:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 1109 by Diomedes
    10-11-2018 2:47 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Thanks for the clarification. I'm not against this concept of socialism. What I am against is ringos idea that "giving everything away" is somehow justifiable and encouraged.
    He uses Jesus to hammer the point home to Christians . Methinks that his "message" is not what modern socialism would advocate.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1109 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2018 2:47 PM Diomedes has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1112 of 1198 (841360)
    10-11-2018 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 1108 by Tangle
    10-11-2018 12:50 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    See my post to Diomedes above. I think that modern socialism is a good thing. As a Christian, I disagree with non-Christians like ringo taking a literal reading of who he sees as a character in a book and embracing the message even though it is not what modern socialism would advocate...according to your definitions. Additionally, I feel that I have a better idea of what Jesus wants than do non-believers. They likely would argue otherwise...though for the life of me I don't know why.
    One does not do a plain literal reading of a 2000-year-old "message and apply it to modern society in a modern context. I would argue that at least some Christians are more qualified to comment on what Jesus means for us today rather than throwing him away and keeping a 2000-year-old message in a book with which to defend your point.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1108 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2018 12:50 PM Tangle has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1163 by Aussie, posted 10-26-2018 4:37 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1113 of 1198 (841361)
    10-11-2018 3:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 1111 by ringo
    10-11-2018 3:20 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    ringo writes:
    If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take?
    To me, the message is not something written down thousands of years ago. It is also largely irrelevant what ancient folks did or didn't do. If Jesus is relevant at all, He is relevant in a current living sense.
    If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?
    It takes hearing from Him now. It takes loving Him and loving others as I do myself. Granted here is where your argument may have some teeth....I should consider the least of these as I do myself. Tus I give...and could give more...but nowhere do I feel I must give all...except in spirit. You likely advocate giving all because you are losing what little you have anyway...and justify the message.
    So now you're using modern socialism to cop out of following Jesus? You've come a long way, baby.
    Show me how I am not following Jesus. You claim to follow a 2000-year-old message because you yourself may need the spare change from others someday. A wise steward at least. Just stop trying to use the message of Jesus to get my spare change. You might be surprised that I would even give it to you, but I listen to my conscience and not any cardboard sign nor forlorn character on a corner.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1114 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:49 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1164 by GDR, posted 10-26-2018 5:01 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1115 of 1198 (841415)
    10-12-2018 3:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 1114 by ringo
    10-11-2018 3:49 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it.
    Which message in particular? The books have more than one.
    If we are talking Matthew 25 again, you may be interested to read this brief article.
    Was Jesus A Socialist, Capitalist, Or Something Else?
    quote:
    It’s fascinating how frequently modern dilettantes re-make Christ in their image via Matthew 25. Socialists finesse Scripture to justify redistributing wealth to the least of these (Matthew 25:40), while capitalists overplay the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30). Both tout Christ’s teachings as a crucial trump card.
    Sounds like *someone* I know of on the internet!
    The author also penned this article: Do Marxism And Christianity Have Anything In Common?...some noteworthy quotes:
    quote:
    The Marxist dialectic redefines good and evil. Sin changed from rebellion against God into striving for individual ends as opposed to the collective. The institution of property rights represented original sin.(...)Those passages in Acts were descriptive more than prescriptive. Taking them otherwise throws out virtually everything else in Scripture. Frederick Engels saw this clearly, "If some few passages of the Bible may be favorable to communism, the general spirit of its doctrines is, nevertheless, totally opposed to it."
    Comments? (Yes...others read the Bible too...and have a right to their opinions and beliefs.)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1114 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:49 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1116 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:15 PM Phat has replied
     Message 1124 by Faith, posted 10-14-2018 2:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1117 of 1198 (841419)
    10-12-2018 4:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 1116 by ringo
    10-12-2018 4:15 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Well, that's a good answer. Love God and love others as I do myself. The only problem is that sometimes I abuse myself. I eat bad foods. I drink too much. I smoke the peace pipe till my lungs hurt. I need to work on taking care of myself as well as helping others.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1116 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:15 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1118 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:26 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1119 of 1198 (841422)
    10-12-2018 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 1118 by ringo
    10-12-2018 4:26 PM


    Re: This is how it is supposed to be interpreted
    Do you believe we should sell our homes to help our neighbors? If everyone did that we would all be homeless.
    Or do you believe that "the state" should own all homes?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1118 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:26 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1120 by ringo, posted 10-12-2018 4:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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