All that is ALSO true. But since you hate the God of the Old Testament you will never get the whole picture and will always miss God's judgments against sin, and when they are missed and denied they accumulate and bring on worse judgment.
No I don't hate the God of the old testament. I do hate the things done by men claiming to do it in His name.
Faith, the Bible tells the story of a progressive revelation of the nature of God to His people. You have said that as a new Christian you were heavily influenced by CS Lewis. Here is a quote from his book "Miracles".
quote:just as, on the factual side, a long preparation culminates in God’s becoming incarnate as Man, so, on the documentary side, the truth first appears in mythical form and then by a long process of condensing or focusing finally becomes incarnate as History. This involves the belief that Myth in general is at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination. The Hebrews, like other peoples, had mythology: but as they were the chosen people so their mythology was the chosen mythology — the mythology chosen by God to be the vehicle of the earliest sacred truths, the first step in that process which ends in the New Testament where truth has become completely historical. Whether we can ever say with certainty where, in this process of crystallization, any particular Old Testament story falls, is another matter. I take it that the memoirs of David’s court come at one end of the scale and are scarcely less historical than St. Mark or Acts; and that the Book of Jonah is at the opposite end.
I believe that the Bible is a tool that will lead us to truth, but if read in the way you read it the truth gets so distorted that it is barely recognizable. Jesus was a Jew immersed in their scriptures. He often refers back to the OT. So, in other words, to understand Jesus' message we need to refer back to the OT, but then, we need to understand the OT through the lens of the life, teaching , death and resurrection of Jesus.
God's call on our lives is simple, (just read my signature quoted from the OT), it is the theology that is not simple at all.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Lewis was an introduction to the overall Christian outline when I was still brand-new to the faith, in fact probably not yet really a believer. As time went on I began to realize doctrinal issues I had with Lewis. I ended up fondest of some of his other books, the more philosophical ones. Not remembering titles unfortunately, and I suppose I might have some objections to some of those now too.
I didn't know he went that far into rejecting the historicity of the entire Bible though, some things just went over my head in those early days. It's interesting that I remember a good job he did arguing with the modern scholars who call the whole thing myth, so it's surprising to find out how much of that he accepted. But now of course I completely disagree with him. there is no myth in the Bible, it's all historical.
Progressive revelation simply means that more and more knowledge of God and His plan of redemption unfolds as the Bible follows the historical events from the beginning to the present. It does not imply that it moves from myth to truth.
In order to say you don't hate the God of the OT you must have to deny that He had those tribes killed. If you acknowledge that He did it then you hate Him.
You are always talking about Jesus' "message." To me it is Jesus Himself who is what it is all about.
Hi GDR You always refer back to your OT signiture scripture so I had to google it...lo and behold I found a book...an entire book written about it by a Pastor.
Read the free sample on Amazon here and note the first Chapter on Micah himself.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Progressive revelation simply means that more and more knowledge of God and His plan of redemption unfolds as the Bible follows the historical events from the beginning to the present. It does not imply that it moves from myth to truth.
The point is though that it was an inspired myth and it doesn't have to be historically true for to find truth in it. It is similar to a metaphor that way. As Lewis it is : "at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination"
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Progressive revelation simply means that more and more knowledge of God and His plan of redemption unfolds as the Bible follows the historical events from the beginning to the present. It does not imply that it moves from myth to truth.
The point is though that it was an inspired myth and it doesn't have to be historically true for to find truth in it. It is similar to a metaphor that way. As Lewis it is : "at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination"
Early in my trek to Christianity I thought of Adam and Eve as such a myth, an educational tale of some sort, though now I couldn't tell you what sort of "education" we might get from any such tale. Jesus treats all the Old Testament as simple truthful fact and that's the bottom line for me. We make some of it into myth because we think it too outlandish, the talking serpent, Jonah in the belly of a great fish and so on, but really all we are doing is denying that God has the power to do such things. As for Adam and Eve they don't fit with evolution. I'm not jettisoning what the Bible says for a fanciful theory that I've seen to be false.
"Finding truth in it" isn't really the point. The main problem with mythifying the Bible, Genesis in particular, is that the truth of Genesis is essential to the meaning of salvation, which is foundational to the restoration of the entire Creation. If there was no Fall then there was no Flood and no need for a Savior. No tale is going to provide a foundation for a real salvation from sin, a real crucifixion, a real resurrection, a real ascension, a real restoration of a real fallen Creation.
I suppose Jonah's sojourn in the belly of the fish isn't equally defensible, or the talking serpent either, but there's also no good reason to reject them if God be God.
Yes many people suffered and died, though overall a LOT fewer than could have been the case. And the mercy stories I've heard are, yes, those of just a few by comparison, but they include providential events that kept them away from the disaster, and events that helped them escape, including a woman who is sure it was an angel who held open a door for her as she was escaping from the tower. I don't know how God makes such decisions, but I'm happy to hear such stories. Usually the people then get involved in helping others.
The point being, how do you distinguish between a serendipitous event and an event where you believe divine intervention is at play?
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
God is in everything. That's how I know 9/11 was judgment and the miracle events were His mercy.
So god engineered the murder of 3,000 people - mostly Christian - using Muslims. But saved a few for no obvious reason?
What kind of warped logic is that? Just yours I guess.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I think it's pretty standard understanding of the sovereignty of God. Nothing happens without Him. We'll never understand why in most cases but in this case at least it has to be judgment on the nation. I know unbelievers have a hard time with this sort of thing, and a lot of believers do too, but just because He is in charge doesn't let the human perpetrators off the hook, their evil religion is still the reason they did it and they certainly don't know the true God.
I think it's pretty standard understanding of the sovereignty of God.
It's primitive superstition and magical thinking.
We'll never understand why in most cases
That's because it makes no actual sense. Why believe something that makes no sense at all?
just because He is in charge doesn't let the human perpetrators off the hook, their evil religion is still the reason they did it and they certainly don't know the true God.
How twisted and convoluted can this get? You tell us that god is sovereign and nothing happens without him, then you tell us it's the Muslim's fault. Allahu akbar!
Just plain silly.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Yes, well it's hard to get it said clearly and you aren't in any way disposed to make sense of it to begin with. But first you have to try not to think of God as a human being. God is omnipresent for one thing, everywhere at once, there is no place where He isn't, He's not remote from us in any sense, so He is present in every situation. There is no way He could NOT be in charge of the events of 9/11. But that doesn't negate how things happen in our own human sphere. People commit crimes and are guilty of the crimes.
Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. {"evil" in the sense of calamity or catastrophe like 9/11}
Amos 3:6 ... shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Its never God thats the problem. Its mans interpretation of what God says or means. IMHO anyway. And I try not to be a Calvinist.
This old teacher is more in line with where I am at:
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
You always refer back to your OT signiture scripture so I had to google it...lo and behold I found a book...an entire book written about it by a Pastor.
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