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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1121 of 1198 (841480)
10-13-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by ringo
10-11-2018 3:20 PM


What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
ringo writes:
You have it backwards. The message is timeless. Jesus got it. Socialists get it. The envelope that it came in is what's irrelevant. You know that. Why do you keep trying to convince yourself that you don't?
Because for one thing, you among all whom I have talked to on these matters are the only one who essentially deems the messenger as irrelavant...little more than an envelope. I suppose that jar too agrees to an extent...though he does not claim atheism as you do. Every other source that I listen to emphasizes Christ. You would say that they are mouthing "Lord, Lord" but I am not as skeptical of all of organized religion as you and jar are. Tangle is right---it is a topsy-turvy world we live in. I CANT and jar both proudly carry guns and you advocate leftist progressive policies...which I give you a hard time about, by the way...I noticed you didn't comment on the two articles that I linked you to in post# 1115. They do make a point on using Jesus to advocate modern left-leaning principles.
ringo writes:
If Jesus telling you that's what you must do to be saved doesn't convince you, what does it take? If the policy of the early church (see Ananias and Sapphira) doesn't convince you that Jesus meant what he said, what does it take?
Why would I even entertain any idea from you regarding what it "takes" to get saved? You don't even believe that we are lost, to begin with. Its the envelope that does the saving...not the message...this is where you and jar are wrong. You both advocate that Christianity is all about one does rather than what one believes. Faith believes that it is all about what one believes and that God predetermined this stuff from the beginning. (She claims staunch Calvinism) I am in the middle of these two extremes. I don't think for a moment that God pre-picked and chose everyone that He knew would respond to His call, nor do I believe that He would smile benevolently on humans who shared everything in a giant communal living arrangement...that itself seems cruel...ever try sharing a room with several people? Uncomfortable, isn't it!
If for the overall sake of argument you are asking me to examine my conscience and be more generous, I won't argue the point--I agree. If you are asking me to either sell my house or share my resources with more people, I feel you are asking too much. If you argue that this is what Jesus asked, I will honestly admit to Him that I can't do it. As did the rich young ruler. And yet I am hardly rich.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2018 3:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 3:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1123 of 1198 (841502)
10-14-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1122 by ringo
10-13-2018 3:23 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Because that same Bible is the only source you have for even the existence of the One you purport to follow.
I don't believe that this is true. God has been around long before any humans existed or any words were written...and I dont need evidence to be convinced
Yoyu can claim that without evidence I have no case, but I would simply say that your science and evidence are irrelevant in this case.
And thus we disagree

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1122 by ringo, posted 10-13-2018 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by ringo, posted 10-14-2018 2:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1126 of 1198 (841525)
10-14-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1125 by ringo
10-14-2018 2:18 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
In a sense, you are trying to push your non-belief onto me. I don't reach conclusions the same way that you did. As I have said before, you will stand at the altar forever if necessary waiting for evidence.
You can say that my methodology is flawed, but you would have to indict virtually all believers worldwide with the same accusation. Many of us believe that we have subjective proof enough to convince us....it may not reach the standard of evidence that you personally would demand...but you have no problem being a secular humanist anyway and hoping that people will come together as one without religion or need of a savior. I am not as optimistic nor would I be happy in such a communal state of global living.
Without promises of a better life, what good does it do for everyone to simply share diminishing resources? I'm more for competition when the pickings get that slim.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by ringo, posted 10-14-2018 2:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by ringo, posted 10-14-2018 3:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1128 of 1198 (841563)
10-15-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1127 by ringo
10-14-2018 3:19 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
You claim to believe in Jesus but you throw out everything He taught. You mock the Bible as a dusty old book even though it's the only reason you have to believe that Jesus ever existed.
As I have told you over and over and over and over..the Bible is not the only reason nor the only source. God inspired the book before the book was even written. God existed before we did. And who said I threw out that He taught? You take the message and run with it only to support your crony socialists and yourself optimistically making a new and better future...whereas I see that as something not to follow.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by ringo, posted 10-14-2018 3:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1129 by ringo, posted 10-15-2018 11:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1130 of 1198 (841723)
10-20-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1129 by ringo
10-15-2018 11:59 AM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
ringo writes:
As I've told you over and over and over and over, Jesus just happened to get it right.
So in other words, you already had a message of your own which the character in the book just happened to conform to...right?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1129 by ringo, posted 10-15-2018 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1131 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1132 of 1198 (841730)
10-20-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1131 by ringo
10-20-2018 3:28 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
OK, I think I get this argument.
Premise: All characters in ALL books are described by human authors. Some may argue that authors are describing a character in their own mind or soul whom they believe exists apart from their imagination, but this cannot be proven one way or another...thus all we have are characters written about by humans.
The "God character" who commanded the slaughter of innocents and who declared that He would have mercy on whom He would have mercy was written by fundamentalist or pharisaical authors...whereas the Jesus who Matthew 25 immortalizes was written about by more rationally minded authors.
Conclusion: In the final analysis, even if God exists apart from our individual or collective imagination, our description of (and behavior because of Him) is all that we have to write or talk about. Thus your premise that the message supersedes the messenger would still presuppose that we ourselves are the messenger living out the message. Does that sound plausible?
You've spent much of this thread arguing against what Jesus said.
Actually, I've been arguing against you....not Jesus. What message I get from Jesus is an individual decision.
Where I might get in trouble is if all along you were the messenger sent divinely whom I ignored. I just argue with you because I don't like the idea that my money doesn't belong to me.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1131 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 3:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1133 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 4:38 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1134 of 1198 (841737)
10-20-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1133 by ringo
10-20-2018 4:38 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
my belief is not in the book nor its message...as if it were a static thing set in time. My belief is a belief in a living presence...an interactive super conscience that communes with my own. Given free will, I do have the human ability to wriggle out of truths that I find uncomfortable...or to obey them and live them. My point is that I don't believe that the message is confined to a book written in times past.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1133 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 4:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1135 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 4:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1136 of 1198 (841744)
10-21-2018 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1135 by ringo
10-20-2018 4:58 PM


Re: What Sacrifice Are We Expected To Make?
Im not convinced that God is *made up* nor do I see how it would be possible to tell one way or another.
I believe based on a number of subjective experiences that confirmed rather than challenged my faith. Lately I have become aware of ohers who have suffered and would have reasons to question a God Who allows suffering, so I can see that argument.
Reality makes me have to accept that God is not a God of favor nor entitlement, though I believe that there is an overall purpose to all of this.
And I disagree with Faiths approach where she has decided to take a stand on what she believes and ignore any and all evidence that is presented against her arguments. It is not a good teachable moment strategy. On the other hand, I too take a stand regarding my belief and find it disingenuous when opponents simply start their argument with a negative truth claim such as that God does not exist.
My belief in God is a belief that His presence is real(though subjectively since I cannot prove objectivity)...
ringo writes:
One that you made up in your head, one that has little relationship to reality or to the character in the book -
And yet you say that the messenger is unimportant and that I too should (and do) see and grasp this "obvious" truth! Ther are millions of respectable Christians who have respectable lives and who reach out in their communities and embrace the message that they have chosen to internalize.
You claim that overall, there is no evidence that these believers have any sort of better message than do atheists who help their communities...and for that, I won't argue.
But I will say that you and I have different messages. And yet in some ways, they could be the same message. I'm just emphasizing a relationship with the Creator. You are emphasizing a "relationship" with that stinky homeless guy that tries to survive in this world. Your basic argument is Matthew 25, where you show how the message emphasizes that if I relate to (and help feed and clothe) a homeless guy I am having a relationship with the Creator.
And I cant really argue with your logic. I just wonder why you see Jesus as simply a character, an envelope, and a presence limited to a book from the past.
When is the last time a homeless guy ever blessed you with any favor?
And that's the flaw in my belief. I expect blessing and I expect the favor.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1135 by ringo, posted 10-20-2018 4:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1137 by ringo, posted 10-21-2018 2:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1139 of 1198 (841809)
10-22-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1138 by Porkncheese
10-22-2018 7:14 AM


Re: Original sin
P&C writes:
There are a few things that I don't understand and don't sit well with me.
Join the club! If I recall, you went through a phase of cognitive dissonance where you had already switched your opinion on religion and yet felt guilty because you disrespected your family for so doing. Perhaps the questions to ask yourself are whether a relationship is more important than personal honesty and integrity with others---family especially.
None of us know how the real story actually goes---and won't know until we die. Perhaps our proper approach is to believe and do something that will give us a personal sense of integrity and inner peace now while we are alive. And as ringo has pointed out, one does not need to be religious in order to be good to others...he would suggest in fact that the non-religious are often better at this than are the believers.
Faith would argue that the book only makes sense once you believe and ths *know* that everything in and about the book must be true.
I believe that the book is metaphorical in many ways, though I do believe that Jesus is alive and real...I just cant prove it to anyone.
Percy would say that evidence means everything and that we dont have any evidence...thus no real reason to accept it all.
In the end, you need to make up your own mind about what you do and do not believe. I would still suggest trying to be a most excellent person and give more than you expect. This is hard for me to do, for I expect a lot of favor from God and not a large sense of duty.
Thus I am not a good role model in this regard.
Anyway, nice to hear from you now and then. Hope that your studies are going well and that you are relatively content and at peace with college.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1138 by Porkncheese, posted 10-22-2018 7:14 AM Porkncheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1141 by Porkncheese, posted 10-24-2018 1:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1143 of 1198 (841957)
10-24-2018 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by ringo
10-20-2013 2:59 PM


This Whole Sin Thing
ringo,addressing ICANT writes:
The children of Adam and Eve - and all mankind - have the knowledge of good and evil and they are subject to the consequences of their actions. It has nothing to do with "inheriting sin" from one man. It's just the way things are.
Granted people choose to sin. The point can be made, however, that we are more likely to choose to sin than to be righteous. The entire History of humanity provides many examples where wars, individual actions against others, and political attitudes have sprung from the flesh rather than from the "fruits of the spirit".
We cant blame our tendencies on some inherited mutation or demon.
ringo writes:
Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of good and evil. Apparently, they passed that on to all mankind. All mankind has inherited the tendency to sin but they haven't inherited sin itself.
You can inherit the family name without inheriting the family fortune. We're all responsible for making our own fortune and we're all responsible for our own sins.
One way to be responsible for our own sins is confessing them and acknowledging them. We need Communion in order to acquire the strength to overcome. Atheists may argue that the only communion we have is with each other, but it has been wisely said that a sheep cannot pull another sheep out of a ditch. The communion requires a shepherd.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by ringo, posted 10-20-2013 2:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1144 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:29 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1145 by Tangle, posted 10-24-2018 1:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1146 of 1198 (842011)
10-25-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1144 by ringo
10-24-2018 1:29 PM


Re: This Whole Sin Thing
ringo writes:
When a shepherd pulls a sheep out of a ditch, it's for his own purposes, not the sheep's.
Running with that analogy....Using God (or Jesus) as "the Shepherd"..of course the overall purpose is His and not ours. Our collective purpose seems to be about making more money, building bigger military forces, and continually oppressing the group of the moment. Tangle would argue that we *are* getting better in this regard... and I suppose that a point can be made that reality suggests that it is only our purpose that matters.
Worship gives us pause to reflect that we are not the top of the food chain in this universe. You may argue that in addition to there being no evidence of a God, the book seems ambiguous about whether such a God is even worth worshiping. Critics of Jesus say that He was far from perfect. Others claim that Jesus was human yet was ultimately as good as one can get for the times He was in.
The responsibility for sin rests with each individual, but the method of repenting and correcting the sin can involves prayer and reflection as well as personal responsibility. It only makes sense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by ringo, posted 10-24-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1147 by ringo, posted 10-25-2018 2:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1148 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2018 3:59 PM Phat has replied
 Message 1149 by GDR, posted 10-25-2018 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1150 of 1198 (842034)
10-25-2018 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1148 by Tangle
10-25-2018 3:59 PM


Tangles Basic Belief
Phat writes:
Our collective purpose seems to be about making more money, building bigger military forces, and continually oppressing the group of the moment. Tangle would argue that we *are* getting better in this regard...
Tangle writes:
That's not an argument, that's a straightforward, thoroughly evidenced fact.
A case can be made either way. Ask yourself do we still have wars? Are they occurring as often as they did 1000 years ago? Some would argue that the only reason that they aren't any worse is because of modern weapons of mass destruction. YYou would prefer to imagine that we are improving by leaps and bounds and are happy that the need for religion appEars to be dying. The fact is that you happened to come along at a time when wars were in remission...but if you had to go through a Great Depression or another World War you may not be so optimistic and would remove your rose-colored glasses.
We don't have a 'purpose'. We just 'are'. We're here like daffodils are here, like fish are here, like rhinos are here. We make the best of it and get on as best we can. Searching for higher purpose is futile - it's never been found because it doesn't exist
What you really mean is that it doesn't exist because it has never been found. I would assert that some have found it. You may argue that without objective evidence they have nothing, but I would say that you won't allow yourself to believe anything without objective evidence.
Tangle writes:
We're here like daffodils are here, like fish are here, like rhinos are here. We make the best of it and get on as best we can.
Thus your only purpose? Sad that you limit your beliefs.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1148 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2018 3:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 7:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1154 by Tangle, posted 10-26-2018 4:04 AM Phat has not replied

  
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