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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 616 of 1677 (841593)
10-16-2018 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Aussie
10-15-2018 3:03 PM


Re: loving God
I don't know what you are talking about and you probably don't either. There is a huge difference between murder and God's justice. As for how "cold" I am about all this, I cry a lot all the time about misfortunes and sufferings I merely read about in the news. What do feelings about suffering have to do with the cause of the suffering anyway? Jeremiah wept over God's destructions of God's city and God's people, you seem to be having a problem not only distinguishing murder from justice but fact from value.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Aussie, posted 10-15-2018 3:03 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by Aussie, posted 10-16-2018 11:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 617 of 1677 (841599)
10-16-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
10-16-2018 12:25 AM


Re: loving God
Faith writes:
Percy writes:
You obviously don't know what those passages mean. You must believe in a God who can be both contradictory and true at the same time. You're living in an Alice in Wonderland world where you can believe as many as six impossible things about God before breakfast.
Weird. What contradictions?
Like I said, you obviously don't understand the passages. Amazing that this has to be spelled out for you. Here are the passages you quoted again, not that you'll understand them any better, but that you quoted them reinforces the point that your arguments lead to the absurd conclusion that we can never know whether anything is good or bad:
quote:
Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. {"evil" in the sense of calamity or catastrophe like 9/11}
Amos 3:6 ... shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
For example, God says, "I...create evil." You say whatever God does is good. Therefore evil is good.
Take a bow, Red Queen.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 12:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 9:58 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 618 of 1677 (841601)
10-16-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by Percy
10-16-2018 9:46 AM


Re: loving God
Y'all just delight in claiming I'm wrong about my own beliefs, don't you? Well, I'm not, but it's a lost cause trying to convince people who have no interest in learning anything.
Here's the obvious for someone who won't care anyway: the word "evil" in the King James is an old English usage which means calamity, not evil as in the devil's work. And I made that very clear in my quote of course. Modern translations use other words like 'calamity" instead because that's what the original Hebrew means in our modern vocabulary.
I made it very clear already though, there should be no need to say anything more, it's just that you all have to pretend you know better than Christians do.
God's judgments are justice, that's why they're good. They hurt of course but justice is good.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Percy, posted 10-16-2018 9:46 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by ringo, posted 10-16-2018 11:48 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 622 by Percy, posted 10-16-2018 1:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 623 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 1:31 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 619 of 1677 (841602)
10-16-2018 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by Faith
10-16-2018 12:56 AM


Re: loving God
When ISIS kills people it is absolutely murder. When God ordains death it is often judgment...
There is a huge difference between murder and God's justice.
Please keep your language consistent Faith. You are hiding behind vague language which I shall clarify for you.
"When ISIS kills people, it is absolutely murder. When Jews or Christians kill people, it is God's justice."
or
When the Arab God ordains children's death it is murder. When my God ordains children's' death, it is justice.
I cry a lot all the time about misfortunes and sufferings I merely read about in the news.
You cry for the children of Jericho as you applaud the soldiers marching out to hack at them with swords. Well done there.
you seem to be having a problem not only distinguishing murder from justice but fact from value.
No Faith. ANYTIME anyone, human or superhuman, orders that children be slaughtered because of their parents' religion, it is evil and should be resisted to the bitter end. YOU are the one that seems to not understand that killing children over politics or religion is always evil.
I dare you to say it as clearly as you mean it. Take a firm stand. Yes or no to the following statement:
"It is sometimes good to kill children over their parents' politics or religion."
Will you answer this clearly?
No, I doubt you will...

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 12:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 620 of 1677 (841603)
10-16-2018 11:09 AM


Sidenote...
On a sidenote, can somebody tell me why I have suddenly stopped getting email notification of responses to my posts?
Thanks!

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Admin, posted 10-17-2018 9:06 AM Aussie has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 621 of 1677 (841605)
10-16-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
10-16-2018 9:58 AM


Re: loving God
Faith writes:
the word "evil" in the King James is an old English usage which means calamity, not evil as in the devil's work.
Causing calamities is evil.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 9:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 622 of 1677 (841607)
10-16-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
10-16-2018 9:58 AM


Re: loving God
Faith writes:
Y'all just delight in claiming I'm wrong about my own beliefs, don't you?
We don't claim you're wrong about your own beliefs but that you believe things that are clearly wrong.
Well, I'm not, but it's a lost cause trying to convince people who have no interest in learning anything.
The irony is strong in this one.
Here's the obvious for someone who won't care anyway: the word "evil" in the King James is an old English usage which means calamity, not evil as in the devil's work. And I made that very clear in my quote of course. Modern translations use other words like 'calamity" instead because that's what the original Hebrew means in our modern vocabulary.
Causing calamities is pretty evil.
I made it very clear already though, there should be no need to say anything more, it's just that you all have to pretend you know better than Christians do.
You're again mischaracterizing what is claimed. What we know is that what *you* (not Christians) believe is absurd and contradictory. We also know that error (e.g., your rapture last month) has no influence on the beliefs that led to that error, so your beliefs cannot be based upon things that are true.
God's judgments are justice, that's why they're good. They hurt of course but justice is good.
As has already been pointed out, this leads to the absurd conclusion that evil is good. Your ideas are cuckoo.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 9:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 623 of 1677 (841608)
10-16-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Faith
10-16-2018 9:58 AM


Calvinism denies God’s Justice
It is not true - even according to the Bible, that ills only befall those who deserve them. Not only does Job suffer through no fault of his own, his children are slain simply to add to his suffering.
In Exodus God manipulates the Pharaoh, so the he will not let the Israelites go, providing a pretext for the Plagues.
But Calvinism makes it worse. If God is in all our decisions - all of them chosen by God in advance, just as Phaorah’s decisions were, then all the supposed justifications for judgement are mere pretexts. How can we condemn the followers of Al Qaeda if their actions were dictated by God? God cannot justly punish us for what he has caused us to do. Let us not forget that according to Calvin God arranged the Fall and if we are God’s enemies, and prone to sin it is His doing and not ours. Even Adam and Eve are less responsible for it than God - and no other human can be blamed for it.
There is no justice in the guiltiest of them all sitting in judgement over the rest.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 9:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:15 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 624 of 1677 (841611)
10-16-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 623 by PaulK
10-16-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
I did not say that ills befall only those who deserve them. We live in a fallen world and judgment like 9/11 doesn't single people out. God's people for instance are warned to leave "Babylon" which is slated for judgment, "lest you partake of her plagues." I did mention that God also says some may die because He is sparing them something worse. I'd also mention that there are other reasons. Jesus made a point in Luke 13:4 of saying that the eighteen people killed by the fall of a tower were no more guilty than any others who die.
The subject here has been murder versus judgment as a general contrast, not as a fine-tuned discussion of all the particulars involved. Judgment on a nation is a general judgment, individual situations are individual situations to be recognized separately.
Pharoah was guilty anyway. Al Qaeda is guilty anyway. Calvinism is obviously too difficult a topic for a general discussion board like this one.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 1:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 3:20 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 625 of 1677 (841612)
10-16-2018 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Faith
10-16-2018 3:15 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
You only address the first sentence and even there you fail.
No, the discussion is not limited to judgement on a nation. You have made the point that ALL bad things are God’s doing. And if God chooses to inflict ills on people that do not deserve it - as Job did not - then, God is neither just nor good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:32 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 626 of 1677 (841613)
10-16-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by PaulK
10-16-2018 3:20 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
Yes God ordains everything, and it's all carefully calibrated in ways we can't possibly appreciate. There are different reasons for different events and different effects on different people even in the same event and so on. As I said, it is a difficult subject, and I don't claim to be good at discussing it, just certain that the evils you ascribe to Calvinism and to God are false. The difficulty is in the fact that God is so much higher than we, encompasses absolutely everything, that we are all "in" Him all the time and so on. There is no way to explain the Trinity, we simply see it in the Bible. Same with God's sovereignty, we can't understand it but He is in absolutely everything that happens. In general we can say that disasters to a nation are judgment on that nation, but in individual cases we often can't know anything for certain.
Nobody likes the idea of judgment, nobody likes the idea of Hell, nobody likes the idea of sin for that matter, we'd rather think humanity is "good." But that isn't what the Bible says, it says we are fallen, which means prone to sin, prone to disobey God, and therefore always under God's wrath and subject to judgment. Jesus came to save us from that but of course if you deny it all there is nothing to be saved from and you can go on accusing Christians of believing in an evil God. Humility would mean owning that it is WE who are at fault, not God. That would also be safer than shaking your fist at God, which only brings more wrath on us.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 3:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 4:17 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 627 of 1677 (841614)
10-16-2018 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Faith
10-16-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
I don't claim to be good at discussing it, just certain that the evils you ascribe to Calvinism and to God are false
Presumably you mean the evils that Calvinism ascribes to God.
quote:
The difficulty is in the fact that God is so much higher than we, encompasses absolutely everything, that we are all "in" Him all the time and so on.
Not at all. That isn’t even an issue. These are simple matters. If God controls everything then God is responsible for everything. If God controls our decisions then - however it is done, even if our decisions are also free - God is more responsible for them than we are. To manipulate people into doing wrong and then to punish them for it is obviously wrong.
quote:
Nobody likes the idea of judgment,
Maybe. But I like the idea that judgement is a mere pretext for inflicting suffering even less.
quote:
...we'd rather think humanity is "good." But that isn't what the Bible says, it says we are fallen, which means prone to sin, prone to disobey God, and therefore always under God's wrath and subject to judgment.
More accurately:
We’d rather think of God is good. But that isn’t What Calvin said. Calvin says that God made humanity fall, made us prone to sin, makes us disobey Him. And then he gets angry at us and punishes us for the things he made us do.
quote:
Jesus came to save us from that but of course if you deny it all there is nothing to be saved from and you can go on accusing Christians of believing in an evil God.
It is not I that says that God caused the Fall. It is not I that says that God controls literally everything. It is not even I that talks of God judging us. I don’t need to accuse Calvinists of believing in an evil God. It’s implicit in their beliefs.
quote:
Humility would mean owning that it is WE who are at fault, not God
Humility then would be saying that humans make their own decisions, decisions which may be contrary to God’s will. Even claiming true libertarian free will. That is the only way that we can be less at fault than God.
quote:
That would also be safer than shaking your fist at God, which only brings more wrath on us.
And yet I am not accusing God of anything. I am not a Calvinist. Do you really think that God would like being described as a cruel and unjust tyrant, even if those claims are only implicit ? And do you think the moral cowardice in not recognising those implicit accusations is pleasing to Him ? If there is a real God he might be pleased that I challenge your blasphemy. Why not ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 3:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 628 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 628 of 1677 (841615)
10-16-2018 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by PaulK
10-16-2018 4:17 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
These are simple matters. If God controls everything then God is responsible for everything. If God controls our decisions then - however it is done, even if our decisions are also free - God is more responsible for them than we are. To manipulate people into doing wrong and then to punish them for it is obviously wrong.
Which is absolutely and completrely wrong. This is just your own human standards being misapplied to God. You don't understand God as I was saying, you cannot understand God, He is way way beyond our ability to comprehend. The Bible tells us whatever wew are able to understand about Him, and obviously to some extent more than we are able to understand.
The fact is that although God is in charge of everything He is NOT responsible for what WE choose to do. That's just the way it is. That's clear from the Bible and you cannot impose your own crabbed view on it. The words "control" and "manipulate" are yours, not the Bible's. We act freely, we choose freely, and yet God ordains everything we think and do. As I said this cannot be understood by us. All we can do is learn what is said about God and about us, we can't make sense of it we can only learn it.
And your insistence on judging God from your own finite fleshly fallen mind is WAY wrong. And this view of God is in the Bible, as you well know since you know that Pharoah is said to act on his own AND that God determines how he acts. That's not Calvinism, that's the Bible. It says something about the nature of God and about spiritual reality that we absolutely cannot comprehend.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 4:17 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 4:49 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 630 by Straggler, posted 10-16-2018 4:53 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 629 of 1677 (841616)
10-16-2018 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Faith
10-16-2018 4:34 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
quote:
Which is absolutely and completrely wrong.
Obviously it is not.
quote:
The fact is that although God is in charge of everything He is NOT responsible for what WE choose to do.
If God controls something - not just could control something but actually does - then He IS responsible for it. That is how responsibility works.
quote:
The words "control" and "manipulate" are yours, not the Bible's
I’m not the one who claims that Calvinism is absolutely Biblical. In fact I deny it. But if our decisions are by God’s Will - and given God’s power, knowledge and role in creating everything it’s really hard to avoid the conclusion that God is in complete control. Unless you are prepared to invoke libertarian Free Will, outside even God’s control - but I already pointed that out.
quote:
And your insistence on judging God from your own finite fleshly fallen mind is WAY wrong.
I’m not judging God. I am just pointing out the obvious implications of your beliefs. It is not my fault that you depict God as evil, and complaining that I draw attention to the fact is a pretty feeble objection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 630 of 1677 (841617)
10-16-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by Faith
10-16-2018 4:34 PM


Re: Calvinism denies God’s Justice
Can you not understand why most of us here think this is madness?
If you or I go round killing babies to punish adulterous parents we’d be rightly condemned for an act of evil against an innocent and defenceless child.
But if God does an identical thing for an identical reason it’s ‘just’ and ‘good’ simply because you define it to be so.
And that’s the morality you espouse....Never mind delusional. It’s sick and dangerous frankly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 10-16-2018 4:57 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 632 by PaulK, posted 10-16-2018 4:59 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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