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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Phat writes: Percy writes: Is that how I come across? Phat says that if something bad happens then it's our fault or at least we deserved it. If something good happens, God did it. Yes, that's how you come across, because you said, "It's never God that's the problem." This is similar to Faith's position concerning the Bible, that nothing bad described in the Bible is ever God's fault because God can only do good and so if it's God's fault then it must be good, but you have applied it to what is happening today. Hurricane Michael blasts Florida? Not God's problem, those people must have sinned, so the hurricane is a good thing. Gay people discriminated against? Not God's problem, homosexuality is a sin, so the discrimination is a good thing. Plus homosexuals should feel guilty about just being who they are, God insists on that.
I will fall back on the position that God is somewhat more complex than what we humans can understand,... Based on what evidence?
...but I would imagine that He wants to commune with us and interact at some level... Still no evidence, though now you're being much less declarative.
---I am not a Deist. Quite clearly.
I may have gone off a bit harshly on Faith, but hers is not the only voice of reason and truth contained here... There is no voice of reason and truth here, but some do do less well at achieving it than others.
God could be said to be responsible for all that happens in that He is the Creator. I suppose it could be argued that *if* God created everything then he's responsible for everything that happened after creation, but what evidence is there that God created anything, let alone everything, or even exists? Faith applied this thinking:
These beliefs that I hold true based on my interpretation of the Bible mean the rapture will happen soon. But though there was no rapture there was no adjustment in Faith's thinking. That's because what she believes has not emerged from a process of gathering and analyzing facts.
And yet can we humans indict Him? You could as well indict leprechauns.
Are we not free moral agents capable of saying and doing what we choose? Of course, and anyone that wants to indict fictional beings is free to do so.
And even if we could indict Him, how on earth (or in heaven) would we sentence Him? Uh, the same way you'd sentence a leprechaun?
All that we can be responsible or sovereign over are our own choices and decisions. Right again.
If something good happens, we can choose to credit God or fate and chance, though I believe that there really is no such thing---it too being a belief. I agree. I think it's a pretty safe bet that whatever happens, good or bad, followed the laws of physics and had nothing to do with God or fate or chance (except at the quantum level).
And the same goes for if something bad happens. Blaming God may make humans feel less responsible, but we do have a degree of responsibility in every daily decision within our control...such as global warming, for example. Granted we may have a minuscule percentage of responsibility, but blaming God is similar to blaming reality....it goes nowhere. I again agree (though not about global warming). You seem just a single step away from Letting Go of God, which is a one woman show by Julia Sweeney, apparently now available on YouTube. This one is audio only:
This one is a poor quality video (maybe that's why they haven't been forced to take it down), but I like it better:
--Percy
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined:
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Percy writes: Yes, that's how you come across, because you said, "It's never God that's the problem." This is similar to Faith's position concerning the Bible, that nothing bad described in the Bible is ever God's fault because God can only do good and so if it's God's fault then it must be good, but you have applied it to what is happening today. Hurricane Michael blasts Florida? Not God's problem, those people must have sinned, so the hurricane is a good thing. Gay people discriminated against? Not God's problem, homosexuality is a sin, so the discrimination is a good thing. Plus homosexuals should feel guilty about just being who they are, God insists on that. Percy that is a PERFECT example of how a non-believer mis-reads Christians, and Christian theology. You FORGET the biblical history because to your mind, you are treating bible-believing Christians as people that basically see the world as an evolutionary accident. Think for a moment about what you have just said. First of all if something good happens, it doesn't follow that it was from God. Secondly it doesn't follow that if something bad happened it is not from God. The true issue is that you are using the terms, "good," and "bad" according to an objective standard which your own ideology says does not exist. (contradiction) In fact a correct understanding of biblical theology isn't that God cannot do something that from a sinner's relative perspective, is "bad". The bible says that God is light and in Him is no darkness whatsoever. (1.John.1) This means there are no dark motives in God. So then if God does something bad, you believe that it must follow that He is bad. But if God does something which is PERCEIVED as bad, logically it can only follow that He does it for GOOD reasons. This is summed up somewhat in Romans 8.28 which I will paraphrase as I can't remember the exact words; "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." But the problem is the secularist, the non-believer, seems to think God is working good for all people, but in fact it says God only works good from bad things for those who know and love God. His people. So then when a hurricane happens, that is not caused by God, but in fact only represents His PERMISSIVE will. The results of a fallen world have been allowed to UNFOLD by God because mankind chose to go it alone without God.
Percy writes: Hurricane Michael blasts Florida? Not God's problem, those people must have sinned, so the hurricane is a good thing No, Jesus said that when the tower fell in his day it was NOT because the people had some special sin worse than other people. (He implied it was random) That would represent a GROSS DISTORTION of the Christian position. I propose this is merely how you PERCEIVE what Christians believe. That is because you can't have any concept of the spiritual because as the bible says, the natural man can't discern spiritual things. So it's not that it's "not God's problem" it's that God has chosen to not save people from the hurricane because as Jesus said, because of an unbelieving world, the world will get worse and worse, and these things will continue. So it would be a contradiction of Christ's words if all bad weather was stopped when He predicted it would continue and get worse. People died and were sick WHEN Jesus was one earth. But He did heal people, and if God is FOR sickness, then why would He heal people through Christ? (a contradiction)? No it's not a good thing that a hurricane happened, but if unbelievers turn to God and say "please stop this" that's hypocrisy. Humans have a long history of only turning to God when they're in trouble. God has made His plan clear. He did not come to save flesh, He came to give eternal life, and in that kingdom there will no longer be and more "pain, and God will wipe away all tears from eyes." (paraphrased from Revelation). So random things do happen, yes. POST-Eden, God took His hands off the system, to a degree. He has permission to do that as soon as people sin. God is not obliged to save all people, nor does He say He will protect us from injury or death in any specific circumstance. Even in the OT people were killed by wild animals. So when a "bad" thing happens, there isn't necessarily any moral evil tied to it. A natural disaster is a random event, it had nothing to do with God unless He specifically claims it such as with Noah's flood. Also, God is "not a man" (numbers 23), meaning we cannot attach a human, relative moral system to God. Nowhere does it say that God can't kill for example. That would be absurd to say "it is immoral for the one who created all to destroy it." LOL. what a simplistic viewpoint, so typical of relative moralists, who basically think their own set of relative opinions are some type of objectively perfect standard.
Percy writes: Based on what evidence? The only evidence we have for God's character is from scripture. That is all we have available. So we have to see what it says directly or implies. God is omniscient, immutable, omnipotent, omnipresent, sovereign, and He is love. (I did not say "He is all-loving"). So then an infinite mind, with infinite imagination can't even be grasped. From Isaiah where it says, "His understanding is unsearchable" (paraphrase) It also says in the same book. "for my ways are not your ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts, for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts." (paraphrase). So then it seems a pretty obvious inference that what Phat said would be true, God's motives, desires, plans and thoughts are way beyond man. This is indirectly evidenced in what is made, through the science of biomimetics. That is to say, when humans are FOXED, they look to the design in nature and find that there are superior designs which they can only understand by studying in depth. Then they plagiarise the design because it is far more optimal and intelligent than their own. So then to ask an enginner how to solve problem X he may say, "it can't be done", but then he may find out there is a way, by studying the design in organisms, showing that God thoughts are higher than His. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given. Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: That's a problem right there. Chance and Evidence are the two points of contention that I have with your take on reality. I have explained before how I do not believe that chance exists except as a definite probability. A finite calculation. A measurable calculation, rather than some whimsical event that occurs totally at random with no measurable quantifier. I think it's a pretty safe bet that whatever happens, good or bad, followed the laws of physics and had nothing to do with God or fate or chance (except at the quantum level). As for evidence, scientists keep bringing it up as if it is always available in objectively measurable ways. An absence of evidence does not inevitably lead to evidence of absence unless rational belief is not part of your tool belt. In which case we will never see eye to eye on any of these discussions. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
MTW writes: Yet we ourselves can attempt to imagine God so as to be able to argue either for or against His actions. And even the actions themselves are largely taken from scripture. Percy mentions Leprechauns, but Leprechauns by definition are quite easy to define. What we are attempting to define is quite a bit more.
The only evidence we have for God's character is from scripture. That is all we have available. So we have to see what it says directly or implies. God is omniscient, immutable, omnipotent, omnipresent, sovereign, and He is love. (I did not say "He is all-loving"). So then an infinite mind, with infinite imagination can't even be grasped. Nowhere does it say that God can't kill for example. That would be absurd to say "it is immoral for the one who created all to destroy it. God by definition is going to do what He wants to do regardless of whether humans approve or disapprove. Humans usually take some measure of comfort in declaring that God Himself is a made up concept. A valid question to continue such a discussion would be "what if He was not imagined and/or made up?
Jesus said that when the tower fell in his day it was NOT because the people had some special sin worse than other people. (He implied it was random) I stand by my argument regarding the illogic of true randomness. Everything happens for a reason. Thats my essential belief statement in a nutshell.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Take that thought to its conclusion...
Why believe something that makes no sense at all?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
mike the wiz writes: First of all if something good happens, it doesn't follow that it was from God. Secondly it doesn't follow that if something bad happened it is not from God. You're arguing with the wrong person - those are Phat's and Faith's views.
The true issue is that you are using the terms, "good," and "bad" according to an objective standard which your own ideology says does not exist. (contradiction) Again, talk to Phat and Faith.
In fact a correct understanding of biblical theology isn't that God cannot do something that from a sinner's relative perspective, is "bad". The bible says that God is light and in Him is no darkness whatsoever. (1.John.1) This means there are no dark motives in God. So then if God does something bad, you believe that it must follow that He is bad. But if God does something which is PERCEIVED as bad, logically it can only follow that He does it for GOOD reasons. And now you're saying something very close to Phat's and Faith's views, that if God does it must be good.
But the problem is the secularist, the non-believer, seems to think God is working good for all people, but in fact it says God only works good from bad things for those who know and love God. His people. His people? Like you, you mean? You've elected yourself one of God's people? You think you belong to an entity that can't even be shown to exist? Who when people try to follow his guidebook (the Bible, in case there was any doubt) they come up with wrong answers time and again, then never modify or even question their beliefs, proof that their beliefs do not derive from any facts of the real world, nor even of their supposed spiritual world.
So then when a hurricane happens, that is not caused by God, but in fact only represents His PERMISSIVE will. The results of a fallen world have been allowed to UNFOLD by God because mankind chose to go it alone without God. This disagrees with Phat, so you'll have to settle it with him. He believes that God created everything and is responsible for everything, though he also called that belief pointless and identical to reality.
Percy writes: Hurricane Michael blasts Florida? Not God's problem, those people must have sinned, so the hurricane is a good thing No, Jesus said that when the tower fell in his day it was NOT because the people had some special sin worse than other people. (He implied it was random) That would represent a GROSS DISTORTION of the Christian position. I propose this is merely how you PERCEIVE what Christians believe. That is because you can't have any concept of the spiritual because as the bible says, the natural man can't discern spiritual things. Since "you can't have any concept of the spiritual," you've just admitted you have no idea one way or the other.
So it's not that it's "not God's problem" it's that God has chosen to not save people from the hurricane because as Jesus said, because of an unbelieving world, the world will get worse and worse, and these things will continue. So it would be a contradiction of Christ's words if all bad weather was stopped when He predicted it would continue and get worse. You're again arguing against Phat's view. God created everything and is responsible for everything.
People died and were sick WHEN Jesus was one earth. But He did heal people, and if God is FOR sickness, then why would He heal people through Christ? (a contradiction)? He didn't. Neither he nor his son exist.
No it's not a good thing that a hurricane happened, but if unbelievers turn to God and say "please stop this" that's hypocrisy. Humans have a long history of only turning to God when they're in trouble. And what of all the people affected by the Hurricane who sincerely worship God everyday?
God has made His plan clear. God has made his plan so clear that there are countless Christian sects.
So when a "bad" thing happens, there isn't necessarily any moral evil tied to it. A natural disaster is a random event, it had nothing to do with God unless He specifically claims it such as with Noah's flood. This argues against Faith's view, which is that God can only do good, so in those cases where God does something evil because it was done in judgment it was actually good.
Also, God is "not a man" (numbers 23),... God is not anything but an invention of man.
...meaning we cannot attach a human, relative moral system to God. Nowhere does it say that God can't kill for example. That would be absurd to say "it is immoral for the one who created all to destroy it." LOL. what a simplistic viewpoint, so typical of relative moralists, who basically think their own set of relative opinions are some type of objectively perfect standard. You're not arguing against anything anybody has said here. You are rebutting a view you've introduced yourself
Percy writes: Based on what evidence? The only evidence we have for God's character is from scripture. Your evidence is a book of myths, often with background settings and people chosen from the real world.
So then an infinite mind, with infinite imagination can't even be grasped. From Isaiah where it says, "His understanding is unsearchable" (paraphrase) You sure seem to know a lot about this infinite mind that "can't even be grasped."
It also says in the same book. "for my ways are not your ways nor are your thoughts my thoughts, for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my thoughts higher than your thoughts." (paraphrase). So then it seems a pretty obvious inference that what Phat said would be true, God's motives, desires, plans and thoughts are way beyond man. I think you've finally got something Phat believes right. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: Why believe in Someone beyond our capability to fully understand? Not having the capacity to understand is not the same as knowing that something makes no sense.
May as well believe in a rational, easily explainable God that we can define and fully characterize. Which of course is why Jesus is more popular as a way to God...He is human and better understood than omnipotent universe creating Ghosts. Might as well believe in anything at all. Which is what people the world over do. Dumb though it is.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Are you implying that people need to outgrow the primitive need for belief? To be honest, if I outgrew my need to believe I fear that I would have no hope left. Even Western people with money believe in something, even if that something is the very banking and financial system itself. Take all of that support away from them and they too would be hard pressed to find hope in logic, reason, and reality. Might as well believe in anything at all. Which is what people the world over do. Dumb though it is.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Phat writes: Are you implying that people need to outgrow the primitive need for belief? Implying? I've been saying it here for years.
To be honest, if I outgrew my need to believe I fear that I would have no hope left. That's dumb on a dozen levels. You believe nonsense because you need to believe something
Even Western people with money believe in something, even if that something is the very banking and financial system itself. There is no equivalence between capitalism and god. For a start capitalism is at least real.
Take all of that support away from them and they too would be hard pressed to find hope in logic, reason, and reality. That is just dumb Phat. People believe all sorts of crap for all sorts of reasons. But we would all be better off if they didn't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
logic, reason, and reality Reading your posts it comes across as if you think there is a binary choice here. It’s either some robotic Spock like existence where logic, reason, and reality restricts and dictates. Or it’s that one accepts irrational belief as part of the human condition and simply embraces it. Then, on the basis that we all have beliefs of one sort or another, you conclude that the former position is ultimately unrealistic and the latter means that your religious beliefs are as justified as any other beliefs (e.g. a belief in Capitalism as a political/economic system) Is that fair? Because I would argue there is a whole spectrum of justification for beliefs ranging from hard science at one end to Faith style evidence denying rapture predicting nonsense at the other. A belief in a political ideology will, for most people, be based on a combination of real life and very material personal experience and upbringing + their education and knowledge of history and the wider world. That’s a woollier basis than hard science but considerably more concrete than notions of personally experiencing godly entities, the sort of experience I have seen you cite as justifying religious belief.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Straggler writes: That's largely because you have never had any subjective experiences....real or delusional. I would argue there is a whole spectrum of justification for beliefs ranging from hard science at one end to Faith style evidence denying rapture predicting nonsense at the other. A belief in a political ideology will, for most people, be based on a combination of real life and very material personal experience and upbringing + their education and knowledge of history and the wider world. That’s a woollier basis than hard science but considerably more concrete than notions of personally experiencing godly entities, the sort of experience I have seen you cite as justifying religious belief. Granted I can admit that my experiences may have been perceived incorrectly...but they nevertheless happened. I had enough of them to validate my confirmed biases.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
My point was that it’s not binary. I have political beliefs based on a woollier grounding than my belief that the Earth orbits the Sun but far more grounded than notions of supernatural entities.
I’m not doubting your pesonal conviction.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 284 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
GDR has studied a great deal and come to conclusions that are not orthodox or traditional etc., and possibly not even truly Christian. Hmm, he sounds a lot like that arch-heretic Calvin.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Everybody has subjective experiences. All individual experiences are subjective.
That's largely because you have never had any subjective experiences....real or delusional. Phat writes:
Something happened (whether in reality or in your imagination). The error is in concluding, "It must be Zeus."
Granted I can admit that my experiences may have been perceived incorrectly...but they nevertheless happened. Phat writes:
No you didn't. You can not validate your own perceptions. I had enough of them to validate my confirmed biases.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9
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Phat writes:
Hi Phat Faith says the same sort of thing and uses it to confirm her particular theology. I have had occasional experiences of what I am convinced were of God in my life. I would say that it is affirming of my theistic beliefs but it certainly wouldn't use it to affirm my theological beliefs. Granted I can admit that my experiences may have been perceived incorrectly...but they nevertheless happened. I had enough of them to validate my confirmed biases. I suggest that God can use anyone He chooses, from Faith to Tangle. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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