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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 467 of 1184 (841991)
10-25-2018 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Straggler
10-25-2018 2:39 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Straggler writes:
One error of judgement on your part and it’s head blowing time.
ICANT doesn't make errors of judgement, his septuagenarian body is honed, tuned and practiced, his reactions are faster than reflexes and his aim is deadly. In short, he’s Robocop.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 2:39 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 468 of 1184 (841993)
10-25-2018 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by ICANT
10-24-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
I suppose my point was that every 20 seconds *sounds* awful, but the seriousness of the situation is entirely dependant on sample size. So if this was one house, and it was burgled every 20 seconds, that would denote an entirely lawless or anarchic society. If the sample was a single city, things would presumably be a pretty bad city to live in.
But if there was one burglary every 20 seconds in a pan galactic civilisation spanning tens of thousands of worlds, we would be describing a virtual utopia (at least with regards to breaking and entering). Therefore although the thought of a burglary every 20 seconds is emotive and unpleasant, it is meaningless in isolation. It might be (relatively) good or bad news about a society, depending.
And to expect a society without any burglary seems a herculean act of optimism, regardless of one's religious beliefs or expectations of human behaviour. Personally I think the number of burglaries that take place in a society reflects more on the society than the individual, but I'm guessing you would demur at this!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 1:43 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 469 of 1184 (841994)
10-25-2018 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Hyroglyphx
10-24-2018 9:28 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
LOL, so???? How is that an argument against guns? All that means is that in the absence of guns, determined suicidal people find other ways of killing themselves. That would literally be like finding the nation with the highest rate of suicide by overdose and then complaining about the evils of modern medicine. Ludicrous argument.
I’m sure this was repeatedly tackled in one of the other gun control threads?
Anyway - The mistake you are making is to assume that suicidal people are determined to commit suicide. It turns out that a lot of suicdal tendencies are fairly fleeting and impulsive and that simply making it more difficult can have a significant effect. Using a modern medicine example:
quote:
This week Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel wrote a persuasive column in the New York Times laying out a strategy for reducing suicides. He suggests that by simply changing the way we package medication, as Britain has done, we could sharply reduce the number of people who take fatal doses of medicine. Emanuel, the brother of the Mayor of Chicago and a physician who comments frequently on health policy, notes that every year one million people attempt suicide, more than 38,000 succeed.
It turns out that suicides and poisonings from medication have been steadily climbing since 1999. He says that a good way to kill yourself is by overdosing on Tylenol and other pills. Emanuel argues that if we make it hard to buy pills in bottles of 50 or 100 capsules that can easily be dumped out and swallowed, we can prevent many deaths. If pills were packaged in blister packs of 16 to 25, anyone who wanted to use them to commit suicide would have to work really hard. The fact is that suicides occur all too often when a person is at a particularly low moment. Research shows that if the opportunity to take pills — or use a firearm — is effectively diminished — often the moment passes and the person lives. Emanuel cites very persuasive data from Britain. In 1998, Britain changed packaging for the active ingredient in Tylenol, acetaminophen, requiring blister packaging of 16 pills when sold over the counter in places like convenience stores and for packages of 32 pills in pharmacies. The result, published in an Oxford University study, showed that over 11 years or so, suicide from Tylenol overdoses declined by 43%.
So you have a fleeting suicidal impulse and a gun - Result, brains on floor dead.
So you have a fleeting sucidal impulse and no obvious or easy/spontaneous way to fulfil it - Result, think twice while you ponder how best to end it all and live.
That, I believe, is what Percy is getting at here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2018 9:28 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2018 5:55 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 470 of 1184 (841995)
10-25-2018 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Straggler
10-25-2018 4:55 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Similarly, when the poisonous 'town' gas was replaced by non-poisonous natural gas, suicide rates fell. Opportunity is a big driver.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 4:55 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 471 of 1184 (842004)
10-25-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 466 by Straggler
10-25-2018 2:39 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Yes. One error of judgement on your part and it’s head blowing time.
The error of judgment would be on your part or other person.
You could meet me everyday of your life on the street or sidewalk as we passed going to work or shopping and you would never know I was packing heat.
Now if one day as we approached one another and you pulled a revolver out of your belt or holster with intent to rob or hurt me
you better be ready to use it because if you stop to think you will be dead. I can assure you I know what a weapon is at first glimpse and will act accordingly.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 2:39 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 2:36 PM ICANT has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 472 of 1184 (842005)
10-25-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by ICANT
10-24-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
Actually I am appalled at the thought of one burglary every 20 seconds taking place anywhere.
This is laughably meaningless. Other people have already addressed this, but because it's yet another example of your uncomprehension of the meaninglessness of the "number of this, number of that" counts you keep citing, it is worth commenting on it yet again.
Whether a burglary every 20 seconds is appalling depends upon how many households are available to be burgled. Is it one? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? A million?
It turns out it's none of these. It's much larger: there are 126 million households available to be burgled. With that many households, a burglary every 20 seconds translates into roughly 1200 burglaries per 100,000 households. The figure isn't usually reported that way - it's usually reported in terms of per 100,000 people, as here: Reported burglary rate in the United States from 1990 to 2017.
Your figure of a burglary every 20 seconds across the entire US is actually good news. Burglaries have followed the overall declining crime rate downward and is probably the lowest it's been since the late 1960's. It's about a third what it was in 1990. The rate of armed burglaries is way lower.
In other words if everyone believed as I do and practiced living a life like I do there would not have to be locks on anything even the banks.
There you go making this inane statement again: that if everyone were just more like you then the world would be a better place. Aside from the conceit and narcissism it reveals (and the questions it raises about your sobriety since it's hard to believe anyone sober would say something like this), you've been shown wrong every which way and still cling to your mistaken beliefs just because you love your guns.
I'm curious. Do you now understand that you can't have 2/3 of households using guns to scare off criminals when only 1/3 of households have guns?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 1:43 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 2:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 473 of 1184 (842007)
10-25-2018 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Hyroglyphx
10-24-2018 9:28 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hyroglyphx writes:
you're the one placing yourself in greater danger by having firearms around the house, particularly that are loaded and not locked up.
Percy thinks of guns in the same manner someone would think of a timebomb with the world's most sensitive hair-trigger... at any given second, it's gonna go off.
In a reply to me you're referring to me in the third person? That's a little weird, but continuing in that vein, Percy just follows the statistics about guns that show your gun is more likely to be used against you, your friends or your family than against any criminal.
The US has a greater suicide rate than the UK because guns are a more lethal means of suicide than any other means, and the US has far more guns. Check out this chart of many countries with both lower and higher suicide rates than the US. Look at the much higher proportion of suicide by gun in the US as compared to all other countries
LOL, so???? How is that an argument against guns?
You left out the chart:
Look at the relative length of the green line ("Not gun-related") to the red line ("Gun-related") for the US as compared to all other countries. How is that not an argument against guns?
All that means is that in the absence of guns, determined suicidal people find other ways of killing themselves.
And how, exactly, do you reach that conclusion from the information in the chart, aside from rampant imagination.
That would literally be like finding the nation with the highest rate of suicide by overdose and then complaining about the evils of modern medicine. Ludicrous argument.
Well, yes it is an ludicrous argument, and nothing like the situation with guns. You'd like your contrived argument to be similar and realistic, because then you'd have an argument, but it's not, not even remotely.
Guns are the best method for impulsive suicides. Other means require more preparation and/or planning, providing opportunity for changing one's mind.
Studies show that females rarely use a gun because they care about what they look like in death. They tend to choose overdose, slit wrists, or any method that reduces trauma for this reason. Men tend to use guns, high falls, or any means that's going to get the job done with little to no chance of suffering. In any event, I fail to see how suicide methods are an argument against guns.
If you fail to see it then you're not thinking, because it's fairly obvious after even just a little reflection. Straggler explains it pretty well in Message 469, and it's not necessary to repeat what he's already said. As Dorothy Parker said, if it's that hard "you might as well live."
On the other side of the ledger, the more urban states (presumably with more crooks and gangs) that have fewer gun owners also have fewer gun deaths, like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut and California.
Not surprising, since economic health almost always has a causal relationship with crime rates.
True, but is that what's really driving the higher gun death rate in states with more guns?
Here are the states I mentioned that are in the upper right of the plot, along with their crime rates in crimes per 100,000 people:
  • Alaska: 1986
  • Alabama: 1941
  • Arkansas: 2065
  • Idaho: 1068
  • New Mexico: 2241
  • Montana: 1230
  • West Virginia: 1235
  • Wyoming: 1136
The above states have both high and low crime rates, yet they all have high gun death rates. What they have in common is a high gun ownership rate. This suggests a strong correlation between gun ownership rates and gun death rates.
And here are the states I mentioned from the lower left of the plot:
  • California: 1701
  • Connecticut: 1171
  • New Jersey: 1180
  • New York: 1194
  • Rhode Island: 1268
Their relatively low crime rates probably do reflect better economic health, so these states have two things in common: good economic health and low gun ownership rates. If these states were all we looked at then it could be argued that both contribute to the lower gun death rate, but we also have the data from the high gun death states, and as I already pointed out, their wide range of crime rates implies that crime rate is not the controlling factor, and that the high gun ownership rate is.
Surely you're not suggesting that liberals chipped away at Chicago's gun laws. Conservatives have little power in Chicago, not zero power.
I think the point he's making is that in cities instituting liberal policies have little effect on violent crime.
Yes, I understand the point ICANT is making. Leave it to ICANT to abandon a failed argument and shift to another as if that were the argument he was making all along. In any case, he has a sample size of one.
Kind of like the whole "gun free zone" area being filled with guns. It's difficult to legally purchase a firearm in places like Chicago and yet their rates of homicide by gun is off the charts... which means those people are obtaining illegal arms. Not surprising.
I already pointed out how easy it is to get guns in Chicago just by taking a ten minute drive. It's the same phenomenon as the border between New Hampshire and Massachusetts. Liquor sales in New Hampshire are restricted to state owned/controlled liquor stores, so there are tons of liquor stores just across the border in Massachusetts. Firework sales in Massachusetts are illegal, so there are tons of firework stores just across the border in New Hampshire. I imagine there are tons of gun stores just outside the Chicago city limits. Obtaining illegal guns in Chicago is just way too easy.
I don't want to eliminate all gun ownership, just most. Hunting rifles are okay. Handguns and assault rifles are not.
What's the difference? Just so you know, "assault rifles" are basically no different than a hunting rifle, except to say that they are less powerful on account of a much smaller caliber.
That's a big and important difference. I do not think people should own handguns or assault rifles or any firearm of large caliber and/or of great energy. This is all the bullet you need for hunting:
You do not need bullets like these:
And there is already a weapons ban on automatic rifles, so it seems specious to be accepting of one but not the other.
I'm not "accepting of one but not the other." An assault rifle is not a hunting rifle. Hunting rifles are fine. I'm referring to real hunting rifles, like this:
This is not a hunting rifle:
I'm against assault rifles, whether or not they're automatic.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-24-2018 9:28 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-25-2018 4:31 PM Percy has replied
 Message 485 by DrJones*, posted 10-25-2018 4:46 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 474 of 1184 (842008)
10-25-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by ICANT
10-24-2018 9:09 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
So me not blowing his/her brains out and allowing him to kill me or worse wound me incapacitating me for the rest of my life, would be the right thing to do in your sight.
Not my sight. It's what Jesus said:
quote:
Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
"Resist not evil," would seem to apply directly to blowing people's brains out, even if they are evil.
ICANT writes:
So I am trained to react to events without thinking that is not instinct as it would be much slower.
Reacting without thinking is even worse than reacting on instinct. Nobody who reacts without thinking should be allowed near a gun.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 9:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 2:22 PM ringo has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 475 of 1184 (842010)
10-25-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by ICANT
10-24-2018 3:26 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
So, "loving your neighbour as yourself," means being prepared to shoot him if he steps out of line?
When it comes to the point my neighbor is fixing to harm me or my wife, yes I would blow his/her brains out.
You sound like a bundle of wound up nerves just looking for an excuse to explode. You should not have a gun.
My mind is conditioned that when I would see a weapon of any kind that is being positioned to bring harm to me or anyone around me reflexes would take over without even thinking as my actions would be automatic. I know you don't understand that but I can't help you there.
A gun in the hands of an aging veteran with failing faculties who sees threats on all sides and who fires automatically is a recipe for disaster.
That is the reason a person pulling a phone out of his/her pocket when standing before a policeman with a revolver in hand shouting orders or reaching for their back pocket usually end up dead. If the policeman has to think he is usually the one that ends up dead.
Your lack of any Christian sense of value for human life is noted. Policemen firing on people with cell phones is just one of the reasons why we have to take guns away from the police, too.
God Bless,
There is nothing of God in your expressions of fear and eagerness to be an instrument of death.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 10-24-2018 3:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 2:37 PM Percy has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 476 of 1184 (842013)
10-25-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Percy
10-25-2018 10:19 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Your figure of a burglary every 20 seconds across the entire US is actually good news.
1 burglary in 1000 years in the US would be too many. No one has any right to enter someone's house and remove anything from the house.
If something is not yours leave it alone or if you find it return it to the rightful owner.
Percy writes:
I'm curious. Do you now understand that you can't have 2/3 of households using guns to scare off criminals when only 1/3 of households have guns?
What kind of fuzzy math are you using?
In 2017 there were 126.22 million households in the US.
Since there is no countrywide database where people register whether they own guns or not you can only guess at how many households have guns in them.
In 2017 the Gallup and the Pew Research Center had 42 percent of the people surveyed said they lived in a household with guns in the house. If there is 42% that will admit to having a gun in the house there is probably at least 20% who have guns that will lie and say no.
If you call me and ask if I had guns in the house I would say no. If you came to my door and asked the same question I would say no. If you were sitting in my living room and asked me the same question I would say no. Yet one would be within reach of my hand. I would not know what your intentions were regardless of what you said your reasons for asking was.
But lets just go with the poll mentioned above at 42%.
That would mean there are 53,012,400 households in the US with guns in them.
So why is it so impossible for 2/3 of the 3 million homes where burglaries occur have guns in them. People that have guns usually live in areas where crime is much higher than people who do not have guns.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 10:19 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 5:39 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 477 of 1184 (842015)
10-25-2018 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by ringo
10-25-2018 11:51 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
Not my sight. It's what Jesus said:
Where did Jesus say that?
The Bible says: "a time to kill". Ecc. 3:3
The only time I can see that is when someone is trying to kill you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by ringo, posted 10-25-2018 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by ringo, posted 10-25-2018 3:25 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 478 of 1184 (842017)
10-25-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICANT
10-25-2018 10:06 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
So you are incapable of any error of judgement? Unbelievable.
Robopops it is......
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 10:06 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 2:42 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 479 of 1184 (842018)
10-25-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Percy
10-25-2018 12:32 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Your lack of any Christian sense of value for human life is noted.
I value all life. I do not kill animals I do not intend to use for food. I have never killed more than I was able to consume before it spoiled.
I value the life of an unborn child that exists at conception.
Don't give me the argument about a woman having control over her own body. She could do that before she has sex with a male. Either protect or don't have sex, as she is in control. Then when she wants to have a child have unprotected sex.
Percy writes:
Policemen firing on people with cell phones is just one of the reasons why we have to take guns away from the police, too.
All they have to do to not get shot is obey the office when he says drop it. Put your hands on the top of your head. People who do those things when told too don't get shot.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 12:32 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 5:50 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 480 of 1184 (842019)
10-25-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 478 by Straggler
10-25-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
So you are ncapable of any error of judgement? Unbelievable.
Actually Robocop made mistakes.
I train regularly to minimize any possibility of making a mistake. But in all my years of owning and carrying guns I have never made a mistake. I have never even come close to having to use my weapon. I hope that continues the rest of my life. But incase the situation ever arises I will be prepared.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 2:36 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Straggler, posted 10-25-2018 3:36 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 489 by Percy, posted 10-25-2018 5:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 481 of 1184 (842021)
10-25-2018 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by ICANT
10-25-2018 2:22 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
ICANT writes:
Where did Jesus say that?
I cited Matthew 5:38-39. Didn't you read my post?
ICANT writes:
The Bible says: "a time to kill". Ecc. 3:3
The only time I can see that is when someone is trying to kill you.
Ecclesiastes 3:8 says, "a time of war." That would be when there would be a time to kill.
It's certainly not an excuse for you to directly contradict Jesus.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 2:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by ICANT, posted 10-25-2018 7:19 PM ringo has replied

  
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