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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Aussie Member Posts: 275 From: FL USA Joined:
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Yes... thank you for that! I received e-mail notification of a couple more responses to posts I made the other day, so it's back working just fine. I'm just trying to work up the emotional energy to respond back to said posts... *sigh*
"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: But not everybody is required to sell or give up everything unless perhaps metaphorically. Take The Centurion, for example. Not only did he have a house--he had servants! In Matthew 19, Jesus told the young man to sell what he had and give to the poor. In Mark 12 and Luke 21, Jesus commended the widow for giving everything she had. In 1 Kings 17, Elijah encouraged another widow to give everything she had.It's a theme. It's what it means to have faith. Matt 8:5-13 writes: Having faith does not automatically mean selling or giving away everything. Some, in fact, use it as an excuse to let go of everything that they are losing anyway...perhaps in the name of socialism.
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." 8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It doesn't say that. The early Christian church certainly didn't take it that way.
But not everybody is required to sell or give up everything unless perhaps metaphorically. Phat writes:
If you claim to have faith in somebody and that somebody tells you to do something, then yes, having faith certainly does mean doing what that somebody says. Having faith does not automatically mean selling or giving away everything. The story of the centurion is about authority, not possessions. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The story of the centurion is about authority, not possessions. The point is that Jesus complimented the man for having great faith...even as he owned a house and had servants. You actually think that Jesus wouldn't fully capitalize on a teaching moment if the teaching were needed? My point is that you personally embrace this teaching of giving it all up because you yourself are giving a lot up---even if unintentionally--and need the "teaching" as a valid excuse. Then you attempt to project it onto me as if I am guilty of some sin. I am only showing you that "giving it all away" is not a primary theme in all of the scripture nor is it intended for everyone.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Do you think the story records every word that Jesus said? One story records one lesson and another story records another lesson. You can't use the lack of a detail in one story as a loophole.
You actually think that Jesus wouldn't fully capitalize on a teaching moment if the teaching were needed? Phat writes:
I'm not embracing anything. I'm just pointing out what the Bible says.
My point is that you personally embrace this teaching of giving it all up because you yourself are giving a lot up.... Phat writes:
Do you know how bizarre that sounds? You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour? You have it backwards. It's the people who hold back who need an excuse for their behaviour.
... and need the "teaching" as a valid excuse. Phat writes:
You're guilty of claiming to "believe in Jesus" and then refusing to do what He told you to do.
Then you attempt to project it onto me as if I am guilty of some sin. Phat writes:
But it is.
I am only showing you that "giving it all away" is not a primary theme in all of the scripture... Phat writes:
You're disagreeing with the followers who knew Jesus personally while He was alive - the ones who actually were in communion with Him. ... nor is it intended for everyone.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour? You have it backward. It's the people who hold back who need an excuse for their behaviour. Its patently ridiculous to sell all that one has. That's not an excuse---that's simply common sense. Modern Psychologists would see your explanation that it was what Jesus wanted us to do as irrational and a bit extreme. Of course you can join Faith in indicting them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It's what Jesus said. Argue with Him. Its patently ridiculous to sell all that one has. It's what the early church practiced. Argue with them.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hard to believe this ridiculous discussion is still going on...and on...and on
No Jesus did not tell anyone but that particular young man to give up all. And the Jerusalem church shared all together during the height of persecutions, but there is nothing said to indicate that they were required to give all, and it is specifically said to Ananias and Sapphira that it was not required. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The early church thought He did. Argue with them.
No Jesus did not tell anyone but that particular young man to give up all. Faith writes:
Yet they were punished for not doing it:
... it is specifically said to Ananias and Sapphira that it was not required.quote:"And to keep back part of the price of the land." I can keep quoting it as long as you can keep claiming that it isn't there. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
the early church thought He did. Argue with them. Prove it.
Yet they were punished for not doing it: They were punished for lying about it. You conflate two statements that are different. They shouldn't have held it back but that is not why they were punished and the entire Church disagrees with you about this.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Remember Ananias and Sapphira?
ringo writes:
Prove it. the early church thought He did. Argue with them. Faith writes:
AND for keeping back part of the price of the land.
They were punished for lying about it. Faith writes:
I don't conflate. The Bible conjoins. Do you know what the word AND means? There is no reason to think the statements are different.
You conflate two statements that are different. Faith writes:
Appeal to popularity and/or authority - not a valid argument. the entire Church disagrees with you about this.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour? Not at all. You need an excuse why you are losing all of your stuff. (And maybe why its not worth fighting/working to save). You likely enjoyed hanging out on the streets helping people anyway. But you cant project your plain reading of the Bible into a sermon for all of us and argue against an entire church that its the gospel...just because you lean socialist anyway. Ask Milton Friedman. (If he were alive! ) You will end up falling in the ditch with the very sheep you are trying to help and expecting someone else to give you the spare change.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
If God required that you kill someone would you do it? Would you act as the instrument of God’s will if he commanded it?
He has past form on this..
quote: I am intrigued just how far a true believer would take this idea that whatever God commands be just and good by definition. Would you actually kill if commanded to by God?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The thing is Christianity teaches the complete opposite of doing harm to anyone, and in fact teaches taking pains ourselves without complaining (I don't claim to be good at it but I love those who are and aspire to be like them). It is one of the things that attracts people to it. So the very idea that God would command a believer to murder someone is simply utterly and completely at odds with Christianity. So the question, Would I obey it, is too irrelevant even to contemplate it.
It is unfortunately true however that some religions, one in particular, does command its followers to murder others, and because they think they are obeying God they do it. Very sad indeed, and those who are members of that religion are victims that need to be set free from it. So you have to take into account what is actually taught, and murder and any other sin cannot be commanded by the true God. I understand this is hard for unbelievers to digest, but Christianity was a huge influence in the world for GOOD and against every kind of harm to anyone. If I had a fortune to spend I'd spend it on teaching people these truths that have been lost in the west. There is nothing sadder to me than this debate that goes on here with people who have NO idea whatever of the glorious legacy they have lost and who say such utterly false things against the true God. One of the ways this craziness gets promoted is through the complete misunderstanding of the Old Testament which is a revelation of God's judgments in this world through His chosen nation which no longer exists as it did then. Getting all this across here has proved to be impossible but I guess I can keep saying it into the wind. The Amalekites had committed a terrible sin against God's people and deserved punishment. The Canaanites had been slated for judgment for hundreds of years before God sent the Israelites to be His arm of judgment against them. The Midianite women had seduced Israelite men into sexual immorality and idolatry at the recommendation of their prophet Balaam, and that is why those who had sexual experience were not to be kept alive because they would have continued corrupting the men of Israel. You really have to understand the context, though I get it that since you've got a modern mindset you aren't going to care anyway. Justice, you know, justice, judgment. Amazing how some people are unable to distinguish justice from murder these days. Really jaw- Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So if God commanded you to would you kill those who have committed a terrible sin against God’s people and who deserve punishment would you do it?
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