Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 691 of 1677 (842025)
10-25-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Admin
10-25-2018 1:59 PM


Re: Sidenote...
Yes... thank you for that! I received e-mail notification of a couple more responses to posts I made the other day, so it's back working just fine. I'm just trying to work up the emotional energy to respond back to said posts... *sigh*

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Admin, posted 10-25-2018 1:59 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 692 of 1677 (842184)
10-27-2018 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
09-23-2018 3:44 PM


Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
ringo writes:
In Matthew 19, Jesus told the young man to sell what he had and give to the poor. In Mark 12 and Luke 21, Jesus commended the widow for giving everything she had. In 1 Kings 17, Elijah encouraged another widow to give everything she had.
It's a theme. It's what it means to have faith.
But not everybody is required to sell or give up everything unless perhaps metaphorically. Take The Centurion, for example. Not only did he have a house--he had servants!
Matt 8:5-13 writes:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."
7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."
8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Having faith does not automatically mean selling or giving away everything. Some, in fact, use it as an excuse to let go of everything that they are losing anyway...perhaps in the name of socialism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 09-23-2018 3:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 2:20 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 693 of 1677 (842244)
10-28-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 692 by Phat
10-27-2018 3:56 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
But not everybody is required to sell or give up everything unless perhaps metaphorically.
It doesn't say that. The early Christian church certainly didn't take it that way.
Phat writes:
Having faith does not automatically mean selling or giving away everything.
If you claim to have faith in somebody and that somebody tells you to do something, then yes, having faith certainly does mean doing what that somebody says.
The story of the centurion is about authority, not possessions.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 692 by Phat, posted 10-27-2018 3:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 10-28-2018 3:23 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 694 of 1677 (842250)
10-28-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by ringo
10-28-2018 2:20 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
The story of the centurion is about authority, not possessions.
The point is that Jesus complimented the man for having great faith...even as he owned a house and had servants. You actually think that Jesus wouldn't fully capitalize on a teaching moment if the teaching were needed? My point is that you personally embrace this teaching of giving it all up because you yourself are giving a lot up---even if unintentionally--and need the "teaching" as a valid excuse. Then you attempt to project it onto me as if I am guilty of some sin. I am only showing you that "giving it all away" is not a primary theme in all of the scripture nor is it intended for everyone.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 693 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 3:39 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 695 of 1677 (842252)
10-28-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by Phat
10-28-2018 3:23 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
You actually think that Jesus wouldn't fully capitalize on a teaching moment if the teaching were needed?
Do you think the story records every word that Jesus said? One story records one lesson and another story records another lesson. You can't use the lack of a detail in one story as a loophole.
Phat writes:
My point is that you personally embrace this teaching of giving it all up because you yourself are giving a lot up....
I'm not embracing anything. I'm just pointing out what the Bible says.
Phat writes:
... and need the "teaching" as a valid excuse.
Do you know how bizarre that sounds? You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour? You have it backwards. It's the people who hold back who need an excuse for their behaviour.
Phat writes:
Then you attempt to project it onto me as if I am guilty of some sin.
You're guilty of claiming to "believe in Jesus" and then refusing to do what He told you to do.
Phat writes:
I am only showing you that "giving it all away" is not a primary theme in all of the scripture...
But it is.
Phat writes:
... nor is it intended for everyone.
You're disagreeing with the followers who knew Jesus personally while He was alive - the ones who actually were in communion with Him.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 10-28-2018 3:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 696 by Phat, posted 10-29-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 702 by Phat, posted 10-29-2018 4:44 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 696 of 1677 (842320)
10-29-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by ringo
10-28-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
ringo writes:
You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour? You have it backward. It's the people who hold back who need an excuse for their behaviour.
Its patently ridiculous to sell all that one has.
That's not an excuse---that's simply common sense. Modern Psychologists would see your explanation that it was what Jesus wanted us to do as irrational and a bit extreme. Of course you can join Faith in indicting them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 3:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 2:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 697 of 1677 (842322)
10-29-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by Phat
10-29-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Its patently ridiculous to sell all that one has.
It's what Jesus said. Argue with Him.
It's what the early church practiced. Argue with them.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by Phat, posted 10-29-2018 1:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 2:49 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 698 of 1677 (842324)
10-29-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by ringo
10-29-2018 2:45 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Hard to believe this ridiculous discussion is still going on...and on...and on
No Jesus did not tell anyone but that particular young man to give up all.
And the Jerusalem church shared all together during the height of persecutions, but there is nothing said to indicate that they were required to give all, and it is specifically said to Ananias and Sapphira that it was not required.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 2:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 3:23 PM Faith has replied
 Message 703 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2018 5:37 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 699 of 1677 (842328)
10-29-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
10-29-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:
No Jesus did not tell anyone but that particular young man to give up all.
The early church thought He did. Argue with them.
Faith writes:
... it is specifically said to Ananias and Sapphira that it was not required.
Yet they were punished for not doing it:
quote:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
"And to keep back part of the price of the land." I can keep quoting it as long as you can keep claiming that it isn't there.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 2:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 700 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 3:27 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 700 of 1677 (842329)
10-29-2018 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by ringo
10-29-2018 3:23 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
the early church thought He did. Argue with them.
Prove it.
Yet they were punished for not doing it:
They were punished for lying about it. You conflate two statements that are different. They shouldn't have held it back but that is not why they were punished and the entire Church disagrees with you about this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by ringo, posted 10-29-2018 3:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 706 by Percy, posted 10-29-2018 8:26 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 701 of 1677 (842331)
10-29-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Faith
10-29-2018 3:27 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Faith writes:
ringo writes:
the early church thought He did. Argue with them.
Prove it.
Remember Ananias and Sapphira?
Faith writes:
They were punished for lying about it.
AND for keeping back part of the price of the land.
Faith writes:
You conflate two statements that are different.
I don't conflate. The Bible conjoins. Do you know what the word AND means? There is no reason to think the statements are different.
Faith writes:
the entire Church disagrees with you about this.
Appeal to popularity and/or authority - not a valid argument.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 3:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 10-30-2018 2:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 702 of 1677 (842334)
10-29-2018 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 695 by ringo
10-28-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
You think I need an "excuse" to love my neighbour?
Not at all. You need an excuse why you are losing all of your stuff. (And maybe why its not worth fighting/working to save). You likely enjoyed hanging out on the streets helping people anyway.
But you cant project your plain reading of the Bible into a sermon for all of us and argue against an entire church that its the gospel...just because you lean socialist anyway. Ask Milton Friedman. (If he were alive! )
You will end up falling in the ditch with the very sheep you are trying to help and expecting someone else to give you the spare change.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 695 by ringo, posted 10-28-2018 3:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by ringo, posted 10-30-2018 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 703 of 1677 (842337)
10-29-2018 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
10-29-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
If God required that you kill someone would you do it? Would you act as the instrument of God’s will if he commanded it?
He has past form on this..
quote:
Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
NUMBERS 21:3 The Lord gave the Canaanites over to Israel, who "completely destroyed them and their towns."
NUMBERS 31:17-18 God commanded Moses to kill all of the male Midianite children and "kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
I am intrigued just how far a true believer would take this idea that whatever God commands be just and good by definition. Would you actually kill if commanded to by God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 2:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 7:26 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 735 by 1.61803, posted 11-01-2018 5:06 PM Straggler has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 704 of 1677 (842341)
10-29-2018 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Straggler
10-29-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
The thing is Christianity teaches the complete opposite of doing harm to anyone, and in fact teaches taking pains ourselves without complaining (I don't claim to be good at it but I love those who are and aspire to be like them). It is one of the things that attracts people to it. So the very idea that God would command a believer to murder someone is simply utterly and completely at odds with Christianity. So the question, Would I obey it, is too irrelevant even to contemplate it.
It is unfortunately true however that some religions, one in particular, does command its followers to murder others, and because they think they are obeying God they do it. Very sad indeed, and those who are members of that religion are victims that need to be set free from it.
So you have to take into account what is actually taught, and murder and any other sin cannot be commanded by the true God. I understand this is hard for unbelievers to digest, but Christianity was a huge influence in the world for GOOD and against every kind of harm to anyone. If I had a fortune to spend I'd spend it on teaching people these truths that have been lost in the west. There is nothing sadder to me than this debate that goes on here with people who have NO idea whatever of the glorious legacy they have lost and who say such utterly false things against the true God.
One of the ways this craziness gets promoted is through the complete misunderstanding of the Old Testament which is a revelation of God's judgments in this world through His chosen nation which no longer exists as it did then. Getting all this across here has proved to be impossible but I guess I can keep saying it into the wind.
The Amalekites had committed a terrible sin against God's people and deserved punishment. The Canaanites had been slated for judgment for hundreds of years before God sent the Israelites to be His arm of judgment against them. The Midianite women had seduced Israelite men into sexual immorality and idolatry at the recommendation of their prophet Balaam, and that is why those who had sexual experience were not to be kept alive because they would have continued corrupting the men of Israel. You really have to understand the context, though I get it that since you've got a modern mindset you aren't going to care anyway.
Justice, you know, justice, judgment. Amazing how some people are unable to distinguish justice from murder these days. Really jaw-
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 703 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2018 5:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by Straggler, posted 10-29-2018 8:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 705 of 1677 (842343)
10-29-2018 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by Faith
10-29-2018 7:26 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
So if God commanded you to would you kill those who have committed a terrible sin against God’s people and who deserve punishment would you do it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 10-29-2018 7:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 712 by Faith, posted 10-30-2018 2:57 PM Straggler has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024