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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 138 (839692)
09-13-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
09-10-2018 12:04 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
At best we can be eternally skeptical of any and all witness evidence.

What makes us think that all of it is invalid, however? I am myself a witness to unknown phenomena. Granted I labeled it as supernatural due in part to confirmation bias, but there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 12:02 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 138 (842836)
11-08-2018 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
09-14-2018 12:02 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Phat writes:

... there is no reason for me to become an activist at debunking all witness testimony.


ringo writes:

Isn't the pursuit of truth reason enough?

Critics would argue that more truth is found through witness testimony than in spite of it.

There is no enough evidence to support whether Jesus existed or not...nor whether God is real or not. There are many witnesses that affirm these things, and a small percentage of them are credible and reasonable to believe.

On the contrary, those few who write of evidence against these stories usually have an ax to grind...they seem nearly obsessed with laying this stuff to rest. I don't trust them.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 11:15 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 114 of 138 (842878)
11-09-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
11-09-2018 11:15 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

There are many witnesses of flying saucers and alien close encounters and probings and Loch Ness monsters and bigfeet and ghosts and conspiracies and... and... and... and... Are they all credible?

You can't lump The Resurrection in with Loch Ness Monsters and Bigfoot. And as I mentioned before, most witness testimonies are questionable. It's the ones that are not that we focus on.
One standard answer that appears logical was given here:
Eyewitness testimony of the resurrection, as recorded in the New Testament, is the basis of faith in Jesus as Christ. In John 15:27 and Acts 1:8, Jesus tells His apostles that they were to be witnesses. Peter speaks to the others in Acts 1 of David's prophecy that God swore He would bring forth Christ and raise Him up. Peter said (Acts 2:31-32) he saw Jesus before the resurrection and "God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact." (Also read Acts 3:15; 4:33; 10:39-41.)

However, the apostles were not the only ones who saw the risen Jesus. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James were the first (Mark 16). Paul lists several witnesses in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8. Among Jesus' disciples, there were 500 other witnesses. And the Jewish Law of Moses required at least two or three witnesses (Deuteronomy 17:6).

"This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Jesus spoke these words in Luke 24:44.

So how credible were all the "witnesses" claiming to have actually seen the resurrected Son of God? Their accounts have withstood the test of time (over 2000 years). Many of them were put to death since they could not renounce their testimonies of His resurrection. But are these recorded testimonies enough? Yes, but in addition, Jesus promised after His ascension this: "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses. . ." (Acts 1:8). The Holy Spirit came in His place to bear witness to all flesh.

It is through the Holy Spirit that believers know within that all reported, recorded, and spiritually revealed about Jesus is true. Proverbs 1:22-23 says "How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you."

Of course you will argue, among other things, that there is no witness from any "Holy Spirit" as believers often behave as bad or worse than unbelievers. You find it odd that we believers never seem to want to follow what you see as the basic message. Its almost as if you once stomped off from the church declaring that religion was full of it yet that you would accept only the duty of the message and needed no one to tell you what to do! That's a bit of an ax, one would think. This whole pursuit of truth fallacy won't ever be conclusive!

Believers may never prove a case for Christ, but unbelievers will never have enough evidence against such a possibility either. The stories stand as they are, and the debate focuses on the authors and the motives of such authors.

Also look at known respected Bible Teachers such as Henrietta Mears. She surely read the book many times from cover to cover and had valid conclusions on the authorship of the book. No ax there. Critics who attempt to trash her conclusions, in contrast, are hardly pristine seekers of truth...they spread discord and controversy among truth seekers.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 11:15 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 138 (842964)
11-11-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
11-10-2018 10:50 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

You have no justification for attacking the motives of skeptics.

I certainly question why they are skeptical and also why they are usually so adamantly against Christians in general. If I am lashing out at all, I am doing so in part out of ongoing curiosity. It is why I go round and round with you. If I found out later in life that you started a homeless shelter in Saskatchewan called SpareChange.Org, I would be humbled and impressed in that you actually were a Christian who merely refused to claim the title. If, on the other hand, I only came to saw you as a contrarian obstructionist who likes clever arguments, I would feel that my lashing out was necessary to defend belief in general as being rational. Of course one could challenge me to start my own soup kitchen...I have a friend who is starting one for the homeless which he named "The Sloppy Agape"...

In fact, there is better evidence for the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot than for the resurrection.
Not in terms of the impact that each event has and had on people. Henrietta Mears may well have had pre-conceived notions...not may people can claim to have original notions with no influence whatsoever...but she impacted a lot of people for the better. Had she believed in BigFoot instead of Jesus, she would never have been heard of.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:20 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 117 of 138 (842970)
11-11-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
11-10-2018 10:50 AM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

Then there's no basis for faith in Jesus.

Sure there is. You embraced His message...even if you don't believe He existed in any way different from Elmer Gantry. You certainly have shown no evidence of arguing as persuasively for or against Big Foot or even Long John Silver. Oh wait...Long John Silver was a character made up from an author. You may have a point that Believers, in general, make up the Jesus that they want. This says nothing about who the author was, who the authors were, or again as I insist...the motives of these many authors. Why can't you and I become authors and add to the storyline? What would your Jesus be doing today in the age of trump, War in Yemen, and EvC Forums?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 11-10-2018 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:26 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 138 (842979)
11-11-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:20 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

Impact is irrelevant. The Kardashians have had a lot of impact; it doesn't mean they have any value.

Perhaps I should elaborate. The Resurrection obviously had impact and value. People won't even remember the Kardashians except as tabloid trivia...unless one of them does something meaningful for society. Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection were meaningful for society-at-large. One could argue that only the message had value. That it was told at all and preserved through antiquity confirms the value of the impact.
Does that make any sense?

My point is that impact with a purpose has value.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:42 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 138 (842980)
11-11-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:26 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
ringo writes:

What would YOU be doing if Jesus was here? Would you be refusing to His face to do what He said? Would you say He was poisoned by left-wing propaganda (far, far left)?

I would certainly be more impressed if He took a moment to point out what I could better be doing in my life rather than simply saying to read the book or listen to Ringo wax poetic about Matthew 25. I would anticipate a good discussion with Him. As for His political stance, I cant speculate.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:44 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 124 of 138 (842988)
11-11-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:44 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
Of course I do. That's why many lectures end with a Q & A session. People feel better being able to discuss specific situations with the author rather than simply be told to buy the book on the way out. You and I disagree with this one. You likely wouldn't spend any time talking with me...pointing to the message you wrote 2000 years ago and going off to do other things. The Jesus that I believe in would take the additional time to answer my questions, address my concerns, and clarify what His 2000-year-old message means for me today. Books often get revised.

Messages ultimately come from human lips...they don't just appear in the sky.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:51 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 138 (842992)
11-11-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by ringo
11-11-2018 2:51 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
There's no lack of clarity in the message. What's lacking is the will to embrace the message.
You honestly have no idea if I obey or ignore the message. Just because I like to argue does not mean I believe my own conclusions!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 2:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 138 (842997)
11-11-2018 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ringo
11-11-2018 3:00 PM


Re: The Great Rescue
I love God. I love my neighbors. If I were guilty of anything, it would be in being selective over whom I help. If a guy comes in our store and steals a bunch of stuff and runs out, I certainly won't give him the same consideration for a handout that I give others whom I see struggling yet respecting society despite being down and out.

To put this in perspective, on my drive o work I see several people whom I recognize on the street...some whom we have encountered in our store. Jesus message was for them to repent as much as it was about me helping the least of them. Again, I may be guilty of being partial to the non-thieves first. Stealing from the store is stealing from the employees. Ultimately, I am not their judge. You will tell me that Jesus expects me not to judge. But I do. Which is one thing I would ask Him to clarify for me in our Q & A.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 11-11-2018 3:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 130 of 138 (861641)
08-24-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tangle
06-23-2018 5:45 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat,to jar writes:

Just agreeing on a global consensus for addressing global warming will require herculean sacrifice from every nation...be they spiritual or secular.
I predict that we will see some very challenging times--though I refuse to believe that we are facing the last days of humanity here on the planet. I will say that we could collectively become victims of a self-fulfilling prophecy if we fight amongst ourselves as to what everyone should believe.

You have said before that Jesus was a failed Messiah, but the words that He said will be used to justify many actions by many people. Let's just hope that it all works out.

It is ironic that the common dogma is fear of a unified one world government that is a secular humanist one and which minimizes the need for Jesus or religion in general. How ironic when, in fact, there will need to be a unified global consensus in order to deal with major problems. Whether or not this fulfills the prophetic interpretations of the apologists or becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy remains to be seen.


Tangle writes:

Why is it that you Christians are forever forecasting an apocalypse?

Because the book talks about one.
Why the pessimism?
I try and be realistic...which is kinda down the middle. Not too unreasonably optimistic yet not too pessimistic either.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 06-23-2018 5:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2019 3:56 PM Phat has responded
 Message 138 by AZPaul3, posted 08-25-2019 7:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 138 (861658)
08-25-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
08-24-2019 3:56 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
I dont just talk about stuff and lie.
'The end is nigh.' is just a lie you guys tell each other to keep yourselves frightened enough to believe the rest of it.
If in fact I am lying at all, I am unaware of it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2019 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2019 3:42 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15387
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 138 (861661)
08-25-2019 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Tangle
08-25-2019 3:42 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..
we dont predict the future anymore than you do. If you think things are always gonna be a certain way "until the sun burns out" so be it.

2 Peter 3:1-14 writes:

Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

NKJV

So you all claim the book was invented for propaganda and control over early people? How quaint. The bottom line is that your concept of the truth is no better than mine. You may claim that science is patently trustworthy in regards to when the sun will burn out and how stable and warm your life might be until then, but why not then use your logic, reason, and reality to explain how stable humanity is becoming and how we have outgrown our beliefs of old. Don't forget to include the FUD of modern media and news, an infotainment source that causes far more harm than any sermon in any church.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2019 3:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Tangle, posted 08-25-2019 8:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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