Free will vs Omniscience

Because smoking shortens your life. You can forever argue that you have a right to live your life the way you want...even as you urge me to follow the message...but you can't argue that smoking is good for some and not others.

Did you ever listen to your Father when you lived under his roof, or did you do what you wanted even back then?

I suppose I did too. But my Dad knew that I did a few things he didn't approve of, and he stayed silent and gave me my free will. He kept an eye on me though.You may claim that nobody keeps an eye on humanity apart from other humans...which is supported by evidence.I would argue that a loving God wouldn't send anyone to hell simply for being stubborn. Which lends support to the argument that Christianity is based on what we do rather than on what we believe.

Double PostEdited by Phat, : No reason given.

These were some great philosophical discussions! I believe that we can have free will even though God knows what we will choose,. The reason is that He was as much there when we choose it as He is now. The fact that we can't choose anything different only means that one can only vote once. The act of choosing it freezes out any possibility of choosing a different path...it does not place the blame on God for knowing the choice. Comments?

He couldn't very well give us free will without not knowing at some point. All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. Did God foreknow that Lucifer would turn against Him? Is ringo correct in that Satan is metaphorical and represents our own desire to be free from constraint? Or is it possible that God, being omnipresent within time, can know a decision made by others without actually being responsible for that decision? In other words, just because He knows what I will choose does not mean I didnt freely choose it---it only means that I cant ever choose apart from how I choose. Does that make any sense?

Arguing over the angels is a simple discussion about the size of angels relative to the size of a given pin. This discussion focuses more on the characters we imagine and the possible attributes of said characters. You act as if imagination is a childish thing and that adults should discuss more mundane aspects of reality. Relax a little! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

It has limitations. It can be depressing at times. Think of what you might feel if you were placed in the situation of these people:Yemen: The man who lost 27 family members in an air strike - BBC NewsBelief can be comforting in times of crises. Belief in a God of unlimited power helps us to deal with our own times of powerlessness.

Not sure I agree, but let me play with this scenario as I type out my reply. (By the way, I have been encouraged to draw out these scenarios in response to some that you yourself drew out earlier in this thread.. )God exists eternally in the past, present, and future. Thus, consider:God creates Stile in point X of time. God exists along with Stile at every point that Stile is alive. Critics argue that if God knows what Stile will decide in year 30, Stile never had a free will. I disagree. Just because God observed what Stile chose to do in year 30 was known by God at point X, the time Stile was created does not mean that Stile had no possibility of choosing otherwise. Stile has every possibility of choice at any given point in his life, limited only by what others do to Stile to alter his choice. Stile still chooses to do what he does, and the point that he could never choose to do otherwise is moot. Stile can only choose what Stile freely chooses, based on his evaluation of the choice at that point in time. It is irrelevant if God foreknew the choice since God exists eternally anyway.Besides...the argument that we cant make another choice than the one we make is silly. We can only choose one choice at any given point in time.The argument must thus hinge on whether God causes us to do certain things or whether we ourselves do them apart from His control. In order for free will to truly exist, it is irrelevant if God foresees the choices. It is relevant only in that God cannot know our choice at that point before He actually creates us at point X.Put another way, Lucifer was never created as a planned Satan.Satan represented the actualized decision of a free-willed Lucifer.God only created the possibility of an actualized decision that He could not know at that point before Lucifer was given the free will to rebel.

This is what I'm talking about hypothetically when God allowed free will. He metaphorically allowed for the possibility that one of His angels would become "unknown"...though He had to not know whether or not that angel would choose to become unknown and take the bait. If God foreknew that Lucifer would reject the communion, there would be no point to any of this. It would just be an alien overlord playing mind games with Himself. If, however, God allowed the possibility but did not know the outcome, it would involve a freely made decision by every created being to either embrace or reject Communion. Does that make any hypothetical sense? To further elaborate...God created the possibility that you would never be His friend but did not know until the point when you chose it. Given that He exists eternally, His foreknowing would be tied inexorably with your decision at a given point in time.

First lets set some parameters here, you and I. For the purpose of this argument, we are totally imagining and making up this God. So why are you setting the bar such that He always ends up holding the bag? Why can't you consider that He wants His creation to develop some responsibility and grow a pair? Why must your God be so wimpy? OK...lets assume He always knew what would happen....it still does not make Him responsible for the decisions you make...regardless whether He knew about them or not. And don't give me the argument that you couldn't decide otherwise....its lame. The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.

OK let's roll with your scenario. How does that remove your free will? The only thing you can't decide is something He cant know. Which means that you can only decide something He knows. To which I say boo hoo. You still had free will.

So you are suggesting that God only create people who will succeed? If so, how does that keep them from being zombies?Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play... Which is obviously how you see reality. But reality also has some people who are evil. Hell is kinda like weeding out the bad DNA. and as for "chance to make it" there is no chance. There is only chosen purpose.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I never suggested that you did. You will be judged on how you respond to the challenges you are faced with in life no matter where you were born or what you believe...and if there is a hell, you won't end up there simply for believing wrong...you will end up there only by knowingly and willfully missing the mark. Are you going to argue that a standard is unfair? Everyone will be judged based on their own unique standard...not on a global one

Just saw this. OK, Let me go start your topic. You wrote the opening post right here.