Free will vs Omniscience

I am definitely biased - I have a position based on rationality and evidence. But that means I'm capable of changing my mind with a change in evidence. If you could bring something to the debate that isn't pure fantasy, poor philosophy and religious dreaming it might make a bit more sense to me. It can't matter at all to the concept.

So give up the voodoo, you'd make a decent human being if you didn't waste so much of your time, effort and mindspace worrying about stuff that even it exists you couldn't begin to understand.

I think you have it here.Why is Jesus Christ in your heart and mind but not mine?I think you need to think really hard about that. Why you but not me? I am, after all an equal member of his creation. Up until the age of about 13 God spoke to me too. He was as real as a jam sandwich. Then he wasn't. So now I'm apparently on my way to hell for no fault of my own.How does that work Phat? Why some people but not others? Why no Hindus or Muslims? Why just you?Does that seem fair? Moral?And please don't give me any of that 'we can't judge god' shit. We can and we do because he gave us the capacity to do exaclty that, otherwise we could not tell right from wrong.How do you explain it Phat? And no biblical bullshit please.

You're not getting it Phat. I did believe - heart and soul, the whole 10 yards. Then suddenly realised it was a pile of horse manure from top to bottom. Anti-road to Damascas moment.Now why would God do that if it meant my damnation? So what is your answer? I have one, do you?

Like I said, that's the last thing that will help. Forget the biblical rationalisations, I'm interested in how you reconcile it personally. If the only way you can do it is to quote chunks of fiction that have been written specifically to avoid the problem, then you've failed.

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Plenty of Hindus and Muslims have become Christians. They don't stay Hindus and Muslims of course, they convert to Christ.

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That is not the point of course. Lots of Christians also covert to Islam. No, the question is why is it that no peasants in remote villages in the Atlas mountains ever spontaneously become Christians. Why does it take a visit from a Christian to happen? The answer is obvious and it's got nothing to do with your god. Which is the point I'm making. This god of yours is a monster. Just as well he's fictional.

You're entirely missing the point. I made no decision, it just happened. I got to the age where it made no sense anymore. One day you believe in father Christmas, the next You don't. Now of course, like father christmas, it was the original belief that was in error so it all makes sense. But from a believer's point of view it makes no sense at all for a belief to just fall away. These are the attitudes of the deluded and the words of pious rationalisations. 'Mourning my own sins' - what a pile of nonsense. The late Christopher Hitchens used to say that god creates people sick then commands them to be well. People like you simply can't see the internal contradictions and have to make up all these crazy self-flagelating metaphors. It's a strange thing to watch.

You understand that this is tautology? 'You have to be a believer of the things I believe to believe them'. It's the 'no true Scotsman' error. He's just asserting that he knows and others don't.He's a charlatan. You're twisting yourself into knots trying to explain the inexplicable, simply because what you want to say doesn't make objective sense. As an outsider, it sounds like preachy gobbledegook.

Well good for him. No doubt he's a really nice guy. He's still wrong. We attack him because he apparently made a really stupid remark. I go with evidence because it works. Belief is useless as a way of establishing what is correct. For example, you know that Muslims and Jews are incorrect despite their beliefs and because of yours.

Don't you think that all this is as nonsensical as arguing over the number angels that can fit on a pin head?I mean you even said it yourself All of these armchair discussions are hypothetical. But they're not even hypothetical they're simply ludicrous. What colour is a leprechaun's coat?You have your all powerful all knowing 'god' creating a devil and not being able to do anything about it, then creating people that he knows will have to finish up in his hell. Just how can you believe any of this silly, silly, childish rubbish? It beats me.

Yes, utterly stupid isn't it? Well at least you're agreeing that the characters are imaginary. It *is* childish fot adults to talk about imaginary things as if they are real.What's mundane about reality?

Reality - ie life - can be both mundane and depressing? Well yes, along with all the other things it can be, like painful, annoying exhilarating, joyous, wonderous, happy etc etc.And we make stories up about all these things to entertain us. What we don't do is believe them to be real. I'd feel lied to by everybody. And the final lie is that Allah wiil save them. He won't. The only thing that can save them are our institutions. If we spent as much money and placed as much belief and effort in democratic institutions as we do in wishfull thinking tosh, we'd make far more progress.

He's either all knowing or he ain't.If he ain't, then he ain't omnicient and if he knew that he couldn't know what would happen but did it anyway, then he's just reckless. If he's reckless - ie doing something without care for the outcome - he aint all loving or perfect. You want a reckless god?

Unlike all the others? How come I can't tell the difference when you're 'imagining' and when you're not? Because it makes no sense at all. I'm just pointing out the obvious problems with your set up. If he knew I would fail, but did it anyway - he's evil, whether I am right or wrong. But this god made me human and fallible. He gave me aggression, envy and greed. He set me up to fail. He gave me a mother but no father, I grew up in drug ridden gang land. My older brother was a dealer until he got shot.I can hardly read or write and I've never had a job. I never had a chance.Or as Hitchens used to say, ''we are created sick and commanded to be well what kind of god would do that? it sounds like some Nazi experiment. No, the real issue is that are only a couple of ways out of this mess, the first is that this god is, in fact evil, the other is that it's all a total fabrication and it is what it looks like - we're evolved apes making the best of it.

No, I'm saying that the whole idea of god's creation in the way you think of it is dumb because the way you state it traps you in a paradox. If he knows that the outcome of his creation will create evil and suffering but he does it anyway, he's evil. But if he creates us without knowing the outcome he's not an omniscient God. Your God is all knowing and can't be evil ergo, your premise/s are wrong. And I say that he should not create a situation where he knows evil will occur at all. Yes, hence your god is either evil or reckless or doesn't exist But he created the bad DNA (and commanded it to be good.) Crap. There is no purpose and if their was it could only be an evil one. Tell me, what is the purpose of creating a child that he knows he will send to hell? If there is no such thing as chance - and rolling two people's DNA together is almost the definition of chance - why are some people born into the ideal circumstances to fail whilst others win life's lottery?Why do you have to be born of Christian parents to go to heaven - why is that not chance?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

How very modern of you. Billions of other Christians disagree and, of course, there's no way of knowing who is right. Are you kidding me? Of course it's unfair. But not only is it unfair, it's evil. You have absolutely no way of knowing that; it's pure wishful thinking and rationalisation.But we're off topic and you've ignored my entire post except the very last sentence. The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.