Free will vs Omniscience

He's either all knowing or he ain't.If he ain't, then he ain't omnicient and if he knew that he couldn't know what would happen but did it anyway, then he's just reckless. If he's reckless - ie doing something without care for the outcome - he aint all loving or perfect. You want a reckless god?

First lets set some parameters here, you and I. For the purpose of this argument, we are totally imagining and making up this God. So why are you setting the bar such that He always ends up holding the bag? Why can't you consider that He wants His creation to develop some responsibility and grow a pair? Why must your God be so wimpy? OK...lets assume He always knew what would happen....it still does not make Him responsible for the decisions you make...regardless whether He knew about them or not. And don't give me the argument that you couldn't decide otherwise....its lame. The real issue is that you either didn't or won't decide otherwise....which is your free will...but which makes you responsible...not God.

OK let's roll with your scenario. How does that remove your free will? The only thing you can't decide is something He cant know. Which means that you can only decide something He knows. To which I say boo hoo. You still had free will.

Unlike all the others? How come I can't tell the difference when you're 'imagining' and when you're not? Because it makes no sense at all. I'm just pointing out the obvious problems with your set up. If he knew I would fail, but did it anyway - he's evil, whether I am right or wrong. But this god made me human and fallible. He gave me aggression, envy and greed. He set me up to fail. He gave me a mother but no father, I grew up in drug ridden gang land. My older brother was a dealer until he got shot.I can hardly read or write and I've never had a job. I never had a chance.Or as Hitchens used to say, ''we are created sick and commanded to be well what kind of god would do that? it sounds like some Nazi experiment. No, the real issue is that are only a couple of ways out of this mess, the first is that this god is, in fact evil, the other is that it's all a total fabrication and it is what it looks like - we're evolved apes making the best of it.

So you are suggesting that God only create people who will succeed? If so, how does that keep them from being zombies?Ringo seems to think that any future evil that God knows about He should stop...but this brings a whole hypothetical controlled and contrived world into play... Which is obviously how you see reality. But reality also has some people who are evil. Hell is kinda like weeding out the bad DNA. and as for "chance to make it" there is no chance. There is only chosen purpose.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

No, I'm saying that the whole idea of god's creation in the way you think of it is dumb because the way you state it traps you in a paradox. If he knows that the outcome of his creation will create evil and suffering but he does it anyway, he's evil. But if he creates us without knowing the outcome he's not an omniscient God. Your God is all knowing and can't be evil ergo, your premise/s are wrong. And I say that he should not create a situation where he knows evil will occur at all. Yes, hence your god is either evil or reckless or doesn't exist But he created the bad DNA (and commanded it to be good.) Crap. There is no purpose and if their was it could only be an evil one. Tell me, what is the purpose of creating a child that he knows he will send to hell? If there is no such thing as chance - and rolling two people's DNA together is almost the definition of chance - why are some people born into the ideal circumstances to fail whilst others win life's lottery?Why do you have to be born of Christian parents to go to heaven - why is that not chance?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

I never suggested that you did. You will be judged on how you respond to the challenges you are faced with in life no matter where you were born or what you believe...and if there is a hell, you won't end up there simply for believing wrong...you will end up there only by knowingly and willfully missing the mark. Are you going to argue that a standard is unfair? Everyone will be judged based on their own unique standard...not on a global one

How very modern of you. Billions of other Christians disagree and, of course, there's no way of knowing who is right. Are you kidding me? Of course it's unfair. But not only is it unfair, it's evil. You have absolutely no way of knowing that; it's pure wishful thinking and rationalisation.But we're off topic and you've ignored my entire post except the very last sentence. The existence of free will either disproves god or proves that he is either evil or reckless.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Hi sorry to interrupt. Can I please have a theological explanation to destiny without the religion vs science boxing gloves. I'm agnostic remember.God knows the future right?
So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt.
This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew wat Judas was going to do.
Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control.The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work wen God already has it written in stone.It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel usless

Just saw this. OK, Let me go start your topic. You wrote the opening post right here.

Hi Tangle, Perhaps.Or god is operating at the speed of light and has infinite mass. This would mean time as we know it does not exist for god.
god would be omnipotent and omniscient in a sense and yet choose to remain blinded for reasons humanity may not understand.You call it evil I get that but perhaps that is the price to be paid for our existence. I would rather there be something than nothing otherwise I could not enjoy my buttered sour dough bread.

Nonsense. Who cares what God could know? To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow. Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will.

I didn't say it removes free will. I said you can't have both omniscience and free will. By trying to give us free will, you're diminishing God's knowledge and power. No, our free will doesn't depend on God's lack of omniscience. Our free will depends on what God will do to us if we don't do HIS will. It doesn't matter whether He knows beforehand what we're going to do. Whatever we "choose", He does HIS will.That isn't free will for us. Heaven or Hell is not a reasonable choice.

What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control.

Oh, I think I get it. To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny.In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.