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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 94 of 1006 (798723)
02-05-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
02-05-2017 3:15 AM


1. Christianity is a revealed religion.
2. God’s revelation is a self-disclosure. He removes the veil that keeps us
from knowing Him.
3. We do not come to know God through speculation.
4. God revealed Himself in various ways throughout history.
5. General revelation is given to all human beings.
6. Atheism and agnosticism are based on a denial of what people know to
be true. (I know you will challenge this, but oh well)
7. Foolishness is founded on the denial of God.
8. Wisdom is founded on the fear of God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:15 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 96 of 1006 (798725)
02-05-2017 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
02-05-2017 3:36 AM


Morality and Boredom
nahh i was just bored. I figured if i pushed a button or two i might get a response!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 3:36 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 4:30 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 103 of 1006 (798771)
02-05-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tangle
02-05-2017 4:30 AM


Re: Morality and Boredom
It's just the rant of a mad priest.
why must the Priest be mad?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 4:30 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 02-05-2017 1:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 1:28 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 114 of 1006 (798865)
02-06-2017 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Tangle
02-05-2017 1:28 PM


Re: Morality and Boredom
Phat writes:

why must the Priest be mad?


Tangle writes:

Because he's saying insane things such as, but not limited to:

"Wisdom is founded on the fear of God."

But this is what the book clearly says.

Prov 9:10 writes:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs go on to say:

Prov 9:12 writes:

If you are wise, your wisdom will reward you;
if you are a mocker, you alone will suffer."


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 02-05-2017 1:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2017 5:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 02-06-2017 12:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 318 of 1006 (800409)
02-23-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by ringo
02-22-2017 2:45 PM


God may be objective but we are all subjective
ringo writes:

Of course the word subjective is relative. Subjective MEANS different for each person - i.e. relative to the subject.

I think I see the problem. You have addressed it already....lets use logic: Objective means relative to the object. If one claims that the object of all morality is God, one concludes that there is no further discussion since God never changes, is absolute, etc etc...
ringo writes:

If there exists a being outside the universe that is all-knowing and absolute in its morality, then YOU still don't know what that absolute morality is. YOU are not omniscient. And the fact that there are thousands of different sects with thousands of different ideas of "absolute morality" means that you don't even have a collective approximation of objectivity.

The believer would argue that as a child of God they have access to and awareness OF the moral absolutes. Telling them that even their Bible is subjective merely frustrates and stiffens their resolve to be absolutely right---as their Creator would logically expect them to be. Right?

Put another way---He is the object of our faith and we are all subjects of the King.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 02-22-2017 2:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 02-23-2017 10:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 320 by jar, posted 02-23-2017 10:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 321 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-23-2017 2:37 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 322 by dwise1, posted 02-24-2017 3:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 426 of 1006 (801546)
03-07-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Modulous
03-07-2017 1:24 PM


Re: the essence of existence (in actual reality)
Mod writes:

The fact that you and I disagree about whether stealing is always immoral demonstrates that subjective morality exists in reality.

Lemme see if I can break this down:

  • Dawns basic argument is that God exists.(Premise #1) objective morality is defined by God as is subjectivity itself.(Conclusion #1) The problem with Dawns position is that he is trying to use what he believes as objective reality(God) to win the argument against the reality of subjectivity having any validity.

  • Mods basic response...as well as others...is that Dawn cannot prove that God exists even though objective morality as a belief proves it through the Bible.
    Dawn needs to provide evidence for his stance.

    Or put another way...even if I or anyone else can lay out a framework for objective reality(as a belief) we ourselves are inescapably subjective in our position...given that we are not God.

    Dawn writes:

    So when I have an omnipotent, omniscient, morally absolute being saying thou shalt not steal, then that statement is an objectively true statement


    Mod writes:

    Agreed. It's a shame you don't have such a thing or your argument would be won.

    In other words, IF God exists, God wins. You are not God. Thus...you can no more claim objectivity than I can.

    Does anyone see my attempt at making a point?

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 425 by Modulous, posted 03-07-2017 1:24 PM Modulous has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 427 by Tangle, posted 03-07-2017 2:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 429 by Modulous, posted 03-07-2017 2:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 430 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 2:21 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 431 of 1006 (801556)
    03-07-2017 4:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 430 by jar
    03-07-2017 2:21 PM


    Re: the essence of existence (in actual reality)
    Are you suggesting that the Creator of all seen and unseen has chosen to allow humanity to determine morality on their own? Furthermore, are you suggesting that God would rather we learn how to behave rather than simply telling us objectively the definition of behavior?

    If so, why the need for commandments?

    I can see Dawns basic argument that human definition, opinion, and a consensus is irrelevant as it is subjective and thus meaningless.

    You, on the other hand, are laying out a case from the Bible that God expected humanity to be responsible for its own destiny.

    Am I close?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 430 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 2:21 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 432 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 4:42 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 433 of 1006 (801580)
    03-08-2017 6:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 432 by jar
    03-07-2017 4:42 PM


    Re: the essence of existence (in actual reality)
    Would you argue that the charge is objective or subjective?

    (The charge that everyone has to try and do their best)

    Is your best the same as my best? Is Faiths best different from both of us? Can Tangle quantify what his best should be?

    Even if we can behave better than the God of the Bible, what about Jesus? (Some argue that He personifies the God of the Bible better than the OT stories....)

    Surely modern day morality is not at a higher standard than the son of David personified....


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 432 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 4:42 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 438 by jar, posted 03-08-2017 6:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 460 by ringo, posted 03-09-2017 11:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 492 of 1006 (804603)
    04-11-2017 2:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 491 by ringo
    04-11-2017 12:04 PM


    Whatever
    ringo writes:

    Morality is whatever society wants it to be, whatever works to help us live together in relative harmony.

    Which I suppose makes sense. The other side wants morality to be something God either dictates or persuades...which even if true turns out to be on us to carry out.

    In order for morals to be rational, they must be something we actually do.

    Can anyone think of morals that society intrinsically knows to be true yet routinely ignores or rejects?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 491 by ringo, posted 04-11-2017 12:04 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 513 by ringo, posted 04-12-2017 3:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 538 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 1:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 493 of 1006 (804604)
    04-11-2017 2:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 490 by Davidjay
    04-11-2017 11:16 AM


    Re: Athiests can have morals
    You are an ok poster, DJ. Your biggest weakness seems to be a bit of an ego...but many of we Christians rationalize it away by claiming that God gave us wisdom and that we are proud "in" Him. . Anyway im glad you got unsuspended and hope that you can curtail the ongoing desire to teach us anything.....it will come naturally with time...it is the posters character that either persuades or repels us.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 490 by Davidjay, posted 04-11-2017 11:16 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13789
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    (1)
    Message 1006 of 1006 (843177)
    11-14-2018 6:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1005 by Aussie
    11-13-2018 4:26 PM


    Missing Messages
    Aussie, I don't see any missing messages...what is it that you are seeing?
    Perhaps if you clicked on the link that I provided to Pork&Cheese you would have pulled up ringos posts only...I was trying to highlight the exchange between ringo and dawn Bertot...

    And while I'm here, I suppose I can make a post. *ponders a moment*... I happen to believe that Morality is realistically subjective and that anyone need not be able to explain morality as long as they understand it intrinsically...which I believe that all humans do.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1005 by Aussie, posted 11-13-2018 4:26 PM Aussie has not yet responded

      
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