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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 980 of 1677 (843982)
11-23-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 979 by Phat
11-23-2018 3:01 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
Ian Fleming knew from the beginning that his story would be fictional. I would argue that the authors of the Biblical books had no similar knowledge. As far as can be discerned, they very much believed that what they were writing was factual...as they understood it.
Do you think they believed in talking snakes?
As far as I understand it, the concepts of "factual news" and "objective evidence" are pretty modern. I would suggest that that anybody who could read and write two thousand years ago made little distinction between reality and fiction.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by Phat, posted 11-23-2018 3:01 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 987 by Phat, posted 11-24-2018 2:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 985 of 1677 (844005)
11-23-2018 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 982 by GDR
11-23-2018 5:13 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
The majority of Jews didn't accept Jesus as the messiah then, and they still don't. What has that got to do with what is meant in Matthew 24?
What has Matthew 24 got to do with what we're talking about?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 5:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 993 by GDR, posted 11-24-2018 10:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 999 of 1677 (844107)
11-25-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 987 by Phat
11-24-2018 2:10 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
What makes you think that? It's certainly a novel idea...one that I can't find support for elsewhere.
Where did you look?
quote:
Wikipedia on Ancient Literature:
August Nitschke sees some fairy tales as literary survivals dating back to Ice Age and Stone Age narrators.
Did you think the stories about Egyptian Gods and Greek Gods and Norse Gods were news?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 987 by Phat, posted 11-24-2018 2:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1000 of 1677 (844109)
11-25-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 993 by GDR
11-24-2018 10:16 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
The whole discussion is about what Matthew 24 is about.
No it isn't. I didn't even notice a reference to Matthew 24 before.
The only thing I'm discussing is your cherry-picking of the text. One glaring example is your dismissal of the stories about the Old Testament atrocities as "made up by men" while at the same time swallowing hook, line and sinker the New Testament stories about miracles and resurrection - even though they are just as obviously made up by men. You ignore the text when it doesn't fit your made-up ideas about a sunshine-and-lollipops God.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 993 by GDR, posted 11-24-2018 10:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1022 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 3:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1002 of 1677 (844111)
11-25-2018 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 994 by Hyroglyphx
11-24-2018 11:32 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Hyroglyphx writes:
I think Yeshua was almost certainly an actual figure...
I think Yeshua was based on an actual figure or figures, much like Elmer Gantry was based on Billy Sunday and other real preachers.
Hyroglyphx writes:
...who knew the Mishna and Torah quite well....
The authors who wrote about him knew the Mishna and Torah quite well.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-24-2018 11:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1003 of 1677 (844112)
11-25-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1001 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:20 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
Not necessarily made up, unless you dismiss the actual event to begin with.
Well, we do dismiss talking snakes because we know that snakes don't talk. So we know that the authors do make things up. Why would we not question other stories that the same authors tell?
We also dismiss resurrections because we know resurrections don't happen.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1007 of 1677 (844119)
11-25-2018 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1004 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
What I don't understand, however, is the default position that states nothing ever happens unless evidence is produced.
But you do understand. You work at Safeway, don't you? You see those tabloids with SHOCKING! stories about bat-babies, etc., don't you? You don't accept them without evidence, do you?
It's only the one example of your pet religion where you insist on parking your brain at the door.
Phat writes:
Even if the whole story was a myth, the very fact that it still occupies so much of human belief and practice is itself curious...if in fact it was all a myth to begin with.
Santa Claus occupies much of human belief and practice. Christians are constantly complaining that he occupies too much of our belief and practice. And he wasn't all myth to begin with but most people today don't know anything but the myth.
Phat writes:
You and I never agree because you start with the assumption of no God where I start with the assumption that God exists.
I started with the assumption that God exists, just like you did. I remind you of that once a week or so. I concluded that your God most likely doesn't exist.
Phat writes:
Granted your entire argument that there is no God to help us...
My argument is that your God isn't helping us. That's what the evidence shows.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1009 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1008 of 1677 (844124)
11-25-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1006 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:35 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
Belief is based on experience.
Belief is sometimes based on misinterpretation of experience. Often it is based on nothing.
Phat writes:
If we *knew* that no magic, supernatural, or otherwise unexplained solution to any of our problems ever happened, we would conclude that no God or gods exist.
Non sequitur.
If we had no evidence of magical events, all we could conclude is that there are no entities using magic. We could not conclude that there are no entities capable of using magic.
By analogy, if there are no nuclear attacks, we can not conclude that no nuclear weapons exist. We can only conclude that none are being used.
Phat writes:
...our own unique experience.
There are no unique experiences. Every experience that you have, somebody else has had. You attach your experiences of prayer, miracles, etc. to your religion. Somebody else attaches the same experiences to a different religion, or to something sensible.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1006 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1024 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 4:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 4:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1010 of 1677 (844129)
11-25-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1009 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:55 PM


Re: Why We Have Pets
Phat writes:
Why did I adopt the "pet" in the first place?
Because it followed you home.
Phat writes:
Because it provided comfort, security, and reassurance.
You're the one who gives it comfort, security and reassurance.
Phat writes:
You gave the pet up for adoption because it tore up your shoes, soiled the indoor carpet, and gave you no comfort nor security. What's more, you could never find it. It was an inviable pet to you...
Do you see how little sense you're making? It is an invisible pet, yes, but the effects are invisible too.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1009 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:55 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1011 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 2:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1013 of 1677 (844135)
11-25-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1011 by Phat
11-25-2018 2:16 PM


Re: Why We Have Pets
Phat writes:
My point is that you concluded that God was not real because you had no subjective evidence.
There's no such thing as subjective evidence.
Phat writes:
Many believers have had answered prayers, newfound friendships, improved self-esteem, and a new feeling of hope.
I've seen more supposed "miracles", "answered" prayers, speaking in tongues, etc. than most people. The difference is that I know they are not evidence of anything supernatural.
Phat writes:
I said the prayer.
You said the prayer because that's what you were told to do. That's the tradition you grew up in.
Phat writes:
You may have done the same thing yet awaited evidence of confimation rather than trusting the pet existed.
I can keep repeating it if you insist: I had the same experience that you did. I did trust that the pet existed. I did not wait for any kind of confirmation.
The difference is that I grew out of it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1011 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 2:16 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1042 of 1677 (844254)
11-27-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1022 by GDR
11-26-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
There are 66 books in the library we call the Bible. There are no doubt hundreds of writers actually involved and the books were written centuries apart. Each writer had his own motivation and source of knowledge. The writers who wrote about the atrocities were in all likelihood responsible to their leaders who could hold the power of death over them. Also, they would want to support the actions of their nation. God told us to do it is easy to say but can be used to justify anything, good or evil, you want it to.
The accounts or resurrection and miracles are confirmed by several authors, and numerous other sources in the Bible, and they are not at all consistent with what the Jews believed about what a messiah was supposed to be or do. I have written in several posts in this thread about why the Gospel accounts would not be something that they would fabricate.
You're just confirming what I said: You cherry-pick the parts you like and hand-wave the parts you don't like. It's just ridiculous to pretend that nobody "would" fabricate the stories in the New Testament.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1022 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 3:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by GDR, posted 11-27-2018 11:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1043 of 1677 (844256)
11-27-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1024 by Phat
11-26-2018 4:24 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
What if we were being seduced by an evil entity who blinded us to the truth?
What if there was a conspiracy to make us think we were being seduced by an evil spirit? What if there was a conspiracy to make us think there was a conspiracy?
The problem with conspiracy theories is that you can't tell where the conspiracy ends.
Phat writes:
If some invisible force were to knock you over, are you going to simply sit on the ground awaiting evidence or are you going to react as if you are facing a threat?
I haven't said anything about "waiting for evidence". What I would do is get up, dust myself off and continue with what I was doing. What I would NOT do is conclude, without evidence, that an evil spirit had knocked me over. I would accept the only evidence I had, that gravity was still in effect and maybe that the coefficient of friction between my shoes and the ice was insufficient. I would not consider either gravity or friction a "threat".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1024 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 4:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1044 of 1677 (844257)
11-27-2018 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Phat
11-26-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
OK, but not everyone has had it. Everyone does not share in the experience until they have had it. Even then, the only people that have had it are a subgroup. It is never everybody.
What's your point? I'm saying that the experiences that you attribute to "God" are not unique to you. Other people who have similar experiences do not attribute them to your God. So your experiences are not evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Phat, posted 11-26-2018 4:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1053 of 1677 (844349)
11-28-2018 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1047 by GDR
11-27-2018 11:20 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
Your POV seems to be that either you have to accept everything literally or reject the whole thing.
No. There are lots of possibilities. The talking snake is a literary device; it's unlikely that the authors expected anybody to take it literally. The Flood didn't happen; it could be a metaphor or an exaggeration or the authors believed it and were just flat-out wrong. The Tower of Babel is an inaccurate interpretation of a real event. And so on.
GDR writes:
Each book of the Bible is by different authors with a variety of sources and motivations.
That's what people keep telling you but you insist that in some cases their motivation could not possibly be anything but factual reporting of real events.
GDR writes:
You guys don't accept this but there is no other reasonable reason to explain the rise of Christianity other than a firm belief in the resurrection.
I agree: The rise of Christianity was caused (at least partly) by a BELIEF in the resurrection. But belief in the resurrection has nothing to do with whether or not the resurrection happened. Similarly, a belief that the Jews were dangerous caused the Holocaust - but that belief was not founded in fact.
GDR writes:
With that in mind it is also reasonable to understand the Bible through Jesus' message of love.
Clearly not. In your own words, "Each book of the Bible is by different authors with a variety of sources and motivations." For some of them the message was the power of God, the wrath of God and the fear of God, not the love of God.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1047 by GDR, posted 11-27-2018 11:20 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by GDR, posted 11-28-2018 5:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1057 of 1677 (844362)
11-28-2018 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1056 by GDR
11-28-2018 5:58 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
In the case of the resurrection the circumstances and the manner in which they are written clearly, IMHO , show that they believed that there were recording historical events as accurately as they could.
The same would apply to the stories of genocide and other atrocities: the authors believed they were recording historical events as accurately as they could. There is no justification for you believing one and not the other.
GDR writes:
When we read it through the lens of Jesus we can say that there is no way that the God of love whose Word or nature was embodied by Jesus would command those things.
So, as I've been saying all along, you pick your favourite flavour with no justification whatsoever.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by GDR, posted 11-28-2018 5:58 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by GDR, posted 11-28-2018 7:03 PM ringo has replied

  
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