|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
GDR writes:
And I am simply saying that there's no reason for believing that, no more reason than there is for believing that Jesus was an example of the "real" God.
I am simply saying that whether they believed it or not, these happenings were not commanded by God. GDR writes:
And you're clearly making up a God that is palatable to you. I guess we all pick our favourite flavour in one way or another.. None of us have absolute knowledge. Edited by ringo, : Spellyng.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
But those two points are not compatible. If God was a God of love, he could just forgive our sins. He wouldn't need to send His Son/Self to die for our sins at all. The crucifixion is proof that God is a God of blood, much more compatible with the God of the Old Testament than with your version.
As I have said before my Christian faith is based essentially based on two things. 1/ God is a God of love and wants us to reflect that into the world. 2/ God resurrected Jesus vindicating and confirming His life and message. GDR writes:
It is hard because it doesn't make a lick of sense. Jesus' death was totally unnecessary and his resurrection was just a copout. "Jesus faked his death for our sins" is just preposterous.
As I believe in the resurrection of Jesus as confirming His message about the nature of God then I can see that the position of "loving your enemy" is totally incompatible with ordering genocide and public stonings. It isn't that hard. GDR writes:
Nonsense. There are plenty of Christians who don't like what happened in the Old Testament but they believe it happened. For that matter, everyone follows a god that is palatable to them.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So what? If you really love somebody, you open yourself up to abuse. If God defends Himself from all possibility of abuse, He is clearly NOT a God of love. Many would abuse this privilege.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
That seems to be pretty common among evangelists.
Jesus seems to have come to the self understanding of His vocation through the Scriptures and through prayer. GDR writes:
That seems to be pretty common among evangelists.
Jesus went into Jerusalem with the faith that somehow God was going to redeem what it was He was doing. GDR writes:
"Saved' from what, exactly? The wrath of God?
He believed that by sacrificing Himself He would save many. GDR writes:
So you're reducing Jesus to the level of any other evangelist.
By faith Jesus believed this to be His vocation, again, by faith not by absolute knowledge. GDR writes:
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't God just prevent the crucifixion?
People, not God crucified Jesus and it was God that resurrected Him. GDR writes:
If He didn't stay dead, that's a fake death. Losing your wallet with your ID and finding it again is not the same as losing it for good. He didn't fake death He died. God resurrected Him....And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
You should know better than that. People dying temporarily is pretty common these days. But if they don't stay dead, they're not dead.
If your biological processes cease, you are dead. Phat writes:
It isn't a claim. It's a fact. If some processes stop - e.g. breathing or heartbeat - they can be started up again. If some other processes stop, particularly the electro-chemical processes, they can not be reversed - i.e. the person isn't only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.
Are you claiming that the only way a person could live again later is if the biological processes did not actually cease? Phat writes:
Or, more likely, the authors who wrote about it were making it up.
And are you implying that God was being deceptive? Phat writes:
My reasoning is not that He didn't die. My reasoning is that He didn't rise from the dead. That is sound reasoning because people don't rise from the dead. If He APPEARED to rise from the dead - i.e. if the authors were not just making it up - then He was never really dead. The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that humans already know what death is and is not (due to science) and thus that Jesus could not have actually died. In any case, the bottom line is the same: A death that doesn't last is not a significant death.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Correction: NO evangelist that we know of was resurrected. You can believe that Billy Graham was resurrected but that doesn't make it so.
No other evangelist that we know of expected and was resurrected. GDR writes:
And how many lives have been lost because one sect interpreted a jot or a tittle differently from another sect?
How many lives have been saved in the centuries since then, from people and nations who have to some degree or another taken on that message. GDR writes:
That seems like a pretty stupid strategy. "Free will" is not much of an excuse for God being irresponsible.
It seems that God responds, which He did by resurrecting Jesus, but He doesn't intervene. GDR writes:
And in terms of what we consider death, He was not resurrected. You can't have it both ways.
In terms of what we consider death He died. GDR writes:
That's just fiction. Resurrection is about new life....And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I prefer to do away with the concept of spirituality entirely. And what do you think of my progressive revelation theory? I've essentially placed you as more evolved spiritually than are the believers.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But it hasn't been.
Thats what makes someone become a believer---when the known evidence is refuted before their eyes. Phat writes:
Skeptics accept symbolism. I don't argue against the symbolic existence of Jesus or the symbolic death of Jesus or the symbolic resurrection of Jesus.
The story appears to be more symbolic. Symbolism can be significant if accepted. Evidence-based skeptics rarely if ever accept unevidenced claims. Phat writes:
I'm not an atheist.
I guess I cant really blame you for being an atheist. Phat writes:
That would be like breaking an egg. Picture yourself returning to a belief in Santa Claus and the Three Talking Bears. If you were to ever change, your ideas/beliefs would have to die before new ideas/beliefs could replace them.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why not? What's the difference?
ringo writes:
I don't look at Christianity that immaturely.... Picture yourself returning to a belief in Santa Claus and the Three Talking Bears. Phat writes:
If we don't define it, who will?
I simply look at the fact that we humans have no business trying to define a universe... Phat writes:
He doesn't seem to care about the people of Syria, etc. ... and ignore the logical concept of a Creator/Higher Intelligence Who just happens to care about us.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How can you claim He "cares about us" if He can help and doesn't?
God cant simply fix every problem that humans themselves create for themselves. Phat writes:
If he isn't useful, what difference does it make if He exists? We might as well just ignore Him.
Why should God be useful to humanity? Phat writes:
What "use" would we be to an omnipotent God?
Should it not be the other way around? Phat writes:
I don't self-identify as an atheist. I know that some people use "lack of belief" as a definition but I don't think it's adequate to define me. I could possibly be a deist but I don't really understand that position.
How can you claim not to be an atheist? Phat writes:
And you don't seem to believe in the message. You obviously are not a believer...except in the message.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
He could make all the guns stop working. In what ways would He help? Be specific. Lets take the war in Syria...And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If God is omnipotent, it goes all the way. Then what? The knives become dull? The chainsaws only magically cut trees and not arms and legs? How far would this magic go?And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
|
Phat writes:
Nonsense.
We would become zombies. Phat writes:
What do children learn from being killed?
The whole point of free will is to allow your creation to learn on its own... Phat writes:
Most of them started by believers. So what's your point?
So far we still have wars, school shootings, and many terrible things that we created. Phat writes:
So what's the difference between setting things straight now and setting things straight right from the beginning? How are believers less zombified in Heaven? Looks like His experiment is over...now He will return to set things straight, right?And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The Tower of Babel story doesn't describe a "common imagination" about God. It's about building an impressive tower to make a name for themselves:
Genesis 11:1-9 describes such a common imagination.quote: And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
But you said in Message 1154, "Or do we all have to first arrive at a consensus of what such a Deity would be defined as?" Genesis 11 doesn't say there was a consensus about God. There was a consensus about a city and a tower.
Essentially they all agreed. They all had a common plan. Phat writes:
It doesn't say that the people were thinking about God at all.
For some reason, being in unity without including God in the plan (or imagination) was a no-no. Phat writes:
The problem only arose because God was afraid of the people being united. People can choose to ignore God individually...that's between them and reality. Problems arise when they do so collectively.And our geese will blot out the sun.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024