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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1009 of 1677 (844127)
11-25-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1007 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:41 PM


Why We Have Pets
ringo writes:
It's only the one example of your pet religion where you insist on parking your brain at the door.
There are several reasons for this.
1) I believe that there is something (Someone) who is greater than anything my brain will ever do. Why did I adopt the "pet" in the first place? Because it provided comfort, security, and reassurance. You gave the pet up for adoption because it tore up your shoes, soiled the indoor carpet, and gave you no comfort nor security. What's more, you could never find it. It was an inviable pet to you...
In some ways, if you were a believer today, your God would actually be more evolved than the God of most believers. Your God would be shrewd enough to allow humans to learn from life without Him and would allow us to encourage and help each other without leaning on Him.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1010 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 2:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1011 of 1677 (844132)
11-25-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1010 by ringo
11-25-2018 2:03 PM


Re: Why We Have Pets
My point is that you concluded that God was not real because you had no subjective evidence. Many believers have had answered prayers, newfound friendships, improved self-esteem, and a new feeling of hope. (not hype, mind you! )
You may argue that no God nor religion was necessary as a cause of such events.
Because it followed you home.
I said the prayer. I asked it to become real to me. You may have done the same thing yet awaited evidence of confimation rather than trusting the pet existed. Believers dont wait for evidence. As you have said before, if there was evidence there would be no belief.
Perhaps a new church should be started. The Temple Of Evidential Support.
It would have no God, no Altar, and No Pastor. People would just gather there and bring spare change.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1010 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 2:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1013 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 2:25 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1020 of 1677 (844189)
11-26-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1018 by Percy
11-26-2018 11:18 AM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Percy writes:
There is nothing in your experience or anyone else's indicating magic or the supernatural is real.
Barring confirmation bias, I will agree except to say that a whole helluva lot is unexplainable! To question is fine, but to doubt causes a great degree of cognitive dissonance. I'm not sure I would even want to switch clubs.
Moreover, I'm not even sure which club I am in anymore!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1018 by Percy, posted 11-26-2018 11:18 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1033 by Percy, posted 11-26-2018 6:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1024 of 1677 (844202)
11-26-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
ringo writes:
If we had no evidence of magical events, all we could conclude is that there are no entities using magic. We could not conclude that there are no entities capable of using magic.
We couldn't even conclude that no entities were using magic. What if we were being seduced by an evil entity who blinded us to the truth? If some invisible force were to knock you over, are you going to simply sit on the ground awaiting evidence or are you going to react as if you are facing a threat?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1043 by ringo, posted 11-27-2018 10:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1025 of 1677 (844203)
11-26-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1008 by ringo
11-25-2018 1:51 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
ringo writes:
Every experience that you have, somebody else has had.
OK, but not everyone has had it. Everyone does not share in the experience until they have had it. Even then, the only people that have had it are a subgroup. It is never everybody.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1008 by ringo, posted 11-25-2018 1:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by ringo, posted 11-27-2018 10:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1026 of 1677 (844204)
11-26-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Percy
11-24-2018 6:28 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Percy writes:
I believe Jesus never existed because of the lack of any evidence that he ever existed.
By this do you mean objective replicable evidence or do you mean personal subjective experience? (which would tentatively qualify as evidence---at least of an unknown event)
Percy writes:
I believe the origin stories of Christianity are false because all religions are false.
Sounds as if you have reached a conclusion. Do you think that this conclusion would interfere with your possible subjective experience? In other words, would you dismiss an event simply because you foreknew that all such events were impossible based on current understanding?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Percy, posted 11-24-2018 6:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1041 by Percy, posted 11-27-2018 9:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1036 of 1677 (844216)
11-26-2018 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1035 by GDR
11-26-2018 7:33 PM


Timeless Father, Human Son
Percy writes:
So in your view Jesus was just someone with a strong political intuition? Hardly seems like someone worth worshipping or building a religion around. What happened to all the other mumbo jumbo about miracles and resurrection and rising to heaven and sitting at the right hand of God and being part of the trinity and having existed since the beginning of time?
GDR writes:
I didn't deny any of that, but in addition He was a prophet who preached a message of the nature of God and how it was and is to affect our lives. I would add that John chap 1 explains the part of Jesus existing from the beginning of time. John tells us that the "Word" or Logos of God existed from before time. He then goes on to say that the "Word" became flesh obviously referring to Jesus. Jesus had a time and place of birth, but then perfectly embodied God's nature, the Word or wisdom of God. Put another way Jesus had The Father's spiritual DNA.
I was going to build off of this idea in my new topic if anyone promotes it. God is timeless and is past, present, and future. Jesus was and is Gods character and is timeless in His nature yet bound by time as a human while on earth. Percy if you get a chance can you promote my new topic?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1035 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 7:33 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1070 of 1677 (844445)
11-30-2018 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1061 by Percy
11-29-2018 11:20 AM


Persuading The Peanut Gallery
percy writes:
I'm not an atheist. I believe in God, but I also believe that no religion has the correct story.
Integrity counts here. How persuasive is the storyteller?
Not all stories can be corroborated through evidence and in these cases, the persuasiveness of the authors and characters go a long way in carrying forth the belief throughout the culture. Here at EvC, we have touched on many of the issues regarding a need for belief balanced against the duty of skepticism and demand for evidence.
Percy writes:
My God gives purpose to the universe, a purpose unknown to us. Our role, if any, if we're not some side effect or unintended consequence, is miniscule. We have not as yet uncovered or encountered any evidence of God, so people who believe he exists do so solely on a foundation of faith.
Perhaps GDR believes that our role is based on the persuasion of scripture and its authors. Did Jesus really say what it was written that He said? If so, He counts as a persuasive individual in regards to current belief. As does Paul. If, on the other hand, the authors are not known, the persuasion factor drops by quite a bit. The belief then becomes empty.
percy writes:
My mind is open concerning how much the gospel writers believed what they wrote, but what difference does it make? Just believing something true doesn't make it so.
GDR seems persuasive. So does PaulK. Consider what each of them is attempting to persuade the peanut gallery to conclude.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1061 by Percy, posted 11-29-2018 11:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1072 by PaulK, posted 11-30-2018 11:08 AM Phat has replied
 Message 1079 by Percy, posted 11-30-2018 8:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1073 of 1677 (844458)
11-30-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1072 by PaulK
11-30-2018 11:08 AM


Re: Persuading The Peanut Gallery
It’s just what he wants Jesus to have said, and never mind the Bible.
I will admit that most believers attempt to make sense of the tales in light of this presupposition. Critically examining the Bible without accepting any of the offers of communion and character from Jesus or God seems like a fruitless profession. Its like having a job running around ruining kids days by telling them Santa Claus is a myth...what actual good does it do to society? In the case of Santa, of course, the goal would be for everyone to grow up and face reality. When this same motive is applied justifying arguments against cherished beliefs, however...it serves no useful function...unless one actually believed that the whole world would be better off atheist.
I would prefer that we arrive at a consensus of a God that we could believe in without looking and sounding foolish.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by PaulK, posted 11-30-2018 11:08 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by PaulK, posted 11-30-2018 12:11 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1074 of 1677 (844459)
11-30-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1071 by ringo
11-30-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
If God was a God of love, he could just forgive our sins.
Many would abuse this privilege. It would be the same as if a credit card company granted everyone forgiveness of their holiday debt. Some would abuse the privilege, going back and racking up new bills again and again...knowing that they would be forgiven.
Or handing out spare change every day to the same alcoholic who promptly goes next door, buys a bottle, and passes out. You really aren't doing him any favors.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1071 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 10:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1075 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 11:59 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1076 of 1677 (844464)
11-30-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1075 by ringo
11-30-2018 11:59 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
well...you do have a point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1075 by ringo, posted 11-30-2018 11:59 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1082 of 1677 (844574)
12-02-2018 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1081 by Percy
12-02-2018 10:13 AM


Bringing Philosophy To The Table
This is an interesting discussion! I think in ways that are similar to GDR, as you have brought up before. ---in that I freely speculate what God is like in regards to my belief that there is a communion of sorts between the people and God.
Percy writes:
All belief not underpinned by evidence is empty. The main difference between my and GDR's spiritual beliefs is that I know mine have no evidence.
I disagree. Imagination is not worthless if well thought out. If I were arguing with a 14 year old troll about God, the argument may well likely be worthless, but if I were arguing with the late Stan Lee, for example, the discussion would likely become quite philosophical and entertaining. In essence, I am throwing my hat in the ring with the idea that we all make up the God that we want (or stand on lack of evidence for such a critter)
It isn't the what that matters, it's how you get to the what. If the how doesn't include evidence then the what is worthless.
What sort of evidence can one provide apart from methodical reasoning and creativity?
Jesus, being the first (and the last) human to exhibit this nature, was in my opinion aware of some basic human attitudes that needed revising (or repented of) and spoke to the people of his time with that goal in mind. Being human, and being bound by time, He did not know the specifics of how this all would play out in an eternal sense. Being in communion with the Creator only meant that He intuitively knew what the Creators desire was for the people. This is why, in my opinion, there had (and has) to be a Trinity....Jesus both is and is not God (the Father) in that He is bound (was bound) by time and cultural constraint. Speaking off the cuff (as GDR does) and without a lot of evidence, I believe that Jesus knew how God(Monotheistic Creator of all seen and unseen universally) desired things to be for humanity...but was not fully God in the sense that He would have had a definite eternal and timeless perspective on when such things would fully manifest or even if they would.(a nod to Open Theism)
As a teacher, Jesus taught that the communion which He had with the Creator was available to all of us. Thus, anyone who is in touch with the spiritual (I would argue that there is more than one spirit but that the Monotheistic Creator is definitely unique from the rest of the deities, spaghetti monsters, philosophies and cultural beliefs of humans) can in essence be in touch with eternal goals and prophetic desires without knowing the future as to the reality of these prophecies. Does that make any sense?
As an added edit: You critics endlessly talk about evidence, as if we can only accept a world where everything is absolute according to our terms and defintions. Philosophy, in contrast, allows for speculation and argument despite no evidence. Granted it does throw the argument into an anything goes mode of relativism, but the argument can at least hopefully progress at that point.
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1081 by Percy, posted 12-02-2018 10:13 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1083 by Straggler, posted 12-02-2018 5:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1084 by Percy, posted 12-02-2018 5:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1090 of 1677 (844654)
12-03-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by ringo
12-03-2018 11:02 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
If He didn't stay dead, that's a fake death.
Thats a stupid argument. If your biological processes cease, you are dead. Are you claiming that the only way a person could live again later is if the biological processes did not actually cease?
And are you implying that God was being deceptive? The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that humans already know what death is and is not (due to science) and thus that Jesus could not have actually died.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by ringo, posted 12-03-2018 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1092 by ringo, posted 12-03-2018 1:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1102 of 1677 (844713)
12-04-2018 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by GDR
12-03-2018 6:48 PM


Are We Responsible For Our Own Intelligent Design?
percy writes:
How do you know that love is the direction God wants you to go. Just because that's more palatable to you? That's fine if that's how you want to go, but that leaves you bereft of any way to persuade people who have grown attached to evidence leading the way toward what is true about the real world. The fact of the matter is that love (which doesn't completely capture what we really mean, but it's concise and will serve for now) will make the world a better place whether that's what God wants or not, or whether God exists or not.
Speculating....If the concept of progressive revelation is true, perhaps "believers" have evolved from a chosen people...the Jews...to a distinct group which then includes the converted gentiles...on to our present day where you have Percy and ringo...both of whom believe in the essence of the message without any need, desire, or evidential necessity to acknowledge a Creator and a messenger/Messiah. How crazy would that be if the modern day atheist/secular humanist who embraces the message of love and good works for good sake is in actuality the final prototype before it all wraps up and goes to the next level? (Faiths Rapture Belief)
Keep in mind also that the conspiracy/doomsday theorists expect us to drop a level or two...back to the sticks and stone age...due to wars, etc...to test who really trusts and who doesn't. For some people it is already happening. Syria
GDR writes:
Fine, but then you are left with a belief that love exists from a chance combination of mindless particles and a myriad of mindless processes resulting in love.
Which is essentially a vote in favor of Intelligent Design.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by GDR, posted 12-03-2018 6:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1103 of 1677 (844714)
12-04-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1100 by GDR
12-03-2018 6:48 PM


The Spirit Of The Message
Percy writes:
If the Bible was not dictated by God or at least written by men inspired by God to write what truly happened, then you really have no evidence for anything you believe, except the trivial stuff like Jerusalem is a real place and so forth. Which is fine, except that when that notion is presented to you then you deny it, insisting that the Bible serves as a reliable basis upon which to build a body of belief. The inerrantists have a much, much stronger position than you.
our very own jar, champion of logic, reason, and reality, always brought up the two commandments which jesus emphasized:
Love God and love others. To an atheist or evidence-based secular humanist agnostic, the two essentially become one: The duty and passion to love others.
The inerrancy group would draw a line at merging the two and would insist that because the book says so, God exists and Jesus alone can help you understand reality. Which is ironically also essentially merging the two into one.
According to my progressive revelation theory, this is what God always wanted from the beginning: To eliminate the need for His own job. As humans internalize the message, we become as Jesus was. Critics would argue that we are attempting to replace God with ourselves. The counter-argument is that we have embraced and loved God by internalizing the message and eliminating the trappings of organized religion in a modern society.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by GDR, posted 12-03-2018 6:48 PM GDR has not replied

  
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