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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I've never understood why believers conflate the builder with the landlord. 1) God is the initial Creator of all things seen and unseen.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No, it has nothing to do with gods and devils. I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. He doesn't stick around to "rule" what he built. So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity? What do you mean? I guess I don't understand your question---The earth is the Lords but the world belongs to the devil. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
How is it "more plausible" when it goes against what we know in the real world?
I suppose because monotheism is simpler and more plausible. Phat writes:
Why not?
Why do you always use the word "rule"?quote: Phat writes:
Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?
Common sense tells me that often the stories don't make sense for a supposedly all wise and logical Deity to consider. Phat writes:
So it's just another copout to escape the obvious nonsense of conventional theology. Open Theism seems palatable to me because it allows both our free wills and also allows Gods involvement.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped? ringo writes:
Because no other would qualify worthy of worship or even respect. Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It can't be obedience. You claim that we're supposed to use our free will.
I dont think its so much worship as it is respect and obedience. Phat writes:
That would make sense if the commander was anywhere near the battlefield. But a commander sitting in the Pentagon often messes things up for the soldier on the actual battlefield who has experience of that particular battlefield.
If the commander has more experience than the foot soldier, the soldier would do well to listen. Phat writes:
Clearly not. People who don't follow your religion - or any religion at all - get along just fine with no need for your god.
We humans are quite early in our development and would need a Being or Deity with intergalactic wisdom and experience... Phat writes:
How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? What good is reason unless it is grounded in reality?
---but belief in God is a rational belief in a superior Being that wants to help us grow. Phat writes:
So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence? About the OT God---if Open Theism is a reality, such a God would even then have allowed its warrior tribal people to do their thing in regards to survival of the culture they lived in. Granted such a Deity could well be viewed as cruel---much like today's arguments that if God exists, why such a messed up world?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Believers are the first ones to tell us we can't understand Him - mysterious ways and all that.
How about attempting to understand Him? Phat writes:
It seems to be more about forcing them to accept YOUR hypothetical and not allowing any questions about it.
And thus they have no business commenting on this topic if they can't accept the hypothetical. Phat writes:
Of course it isn't. Why are you guys so sensitive about being irrational? My choice of ice cream isn't rational; I don't feel any need to pretend that it is.
So your argument has to be that belief is not rational. Phat writes:
Back to your first question. His "mysterious ways" are not rational by our standards. That's why you use the mysterious ways copout in the first place.
Is the hypothetical God with omniscience and foreknowledge rational? Phat writes:
It seems to me that open theism is just a new name for the same old copout. Would an open theistic God be any better?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It has nothing to do with different thought processes. Believers tell EVERYBODY that God works in mysterious ways. That's their excuse for anything they can't explain - i.e. anything that doesn't make sense.
OK WHO is "us"? Lets be specific. And if in fact non believers have a different thought process than believers, how does it matter? Phat writes:
Again, it has nothing to do with who knows more. I'm talking about what believers think they know and the excuses they make for not knowing.
I would argue that at best, you know no more than we do. Phat writes:
For science-minded people, assumptions are based on evidence. Real knowledge is a web of inter-connected strands, each of which can be traced back to evidence. It is not an Indian rope trick. You hang your hat on evidence but would be flying in the dark if there were no evidence...since your preassumptions serve as your radar.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Let's not be too optimistic about the "finally". Luckily. the fundamentalist idiots have finally been outvoted.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Argumentum ad body-countum. Let me know when you're approaching fifty million which was the tally of Bible Christians killed by Rome over six centuries.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
That's what people are telling you: the murders ordered by God in the Old Testament were not justice. Only a morally confused person would say they were. And only a morally confused God would order murder in the name of justice. Only a morally confused person totally ignorant of truth and reality would reduce justice to murder.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not true. For example, there is little historical support for the conquest of Canaan. The Israelites made up a fictional war which they won. No war, no victors. Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's your "free will" thing shooting you in the foot. What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them? What did they learn by committing their own genocides? In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Same thing when the New Testament talks about Jesus. Why do you dismiss what Moses supposedly made up and then swallow hook, line and sinker what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John claim were "eyewitness" accounts? In addition, the text clearly does not suggest that God Himself is speaking.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Then why do you dismiss it? I believe that the Torah was inspired.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I certainly do not. I'm asking why YOU take some parts of it literally - e.g. the death and resurrection of Jesus - and throw away the parts you don't like - e.g. God's genocides.
... you hold our feet to the fire and read every part of the words in the Bible literally as if all of them applied for us today. Phat writes:
That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you?
All of the mail is for us, yet not all of it is specifically addressed to us. Phat writes:
The same applies to Jesus, 2000 years ago. He might well have something different to say to us now. By your logic, He might very well be wearing a Make America Great Again hat when He returns and telling you to sell everything you have to build a wall on the border.
But if you believe that God is living today, you will more easily see that this was an event that happened 3500 or more years ago and that the God of the book at that moment in time may well have something different to say to us now. Phat writes:
Again, the same applies to Jesus. ... God does not only speak through the words in a book concerning His admonitions to people thousands of years ago. Yes, He "does not change" but surely He has more to say than what the book claims He said.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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