A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism

I've never understood why believers conflate the builder with the landlord.

No, it has nothing to do with gods and devils. I'm wondering why people conflate the builder with the landlord. In real life, the builder builds and then moves on to the next project. He doesn't stick around to "rule" what he built. So why would you think that the Creator and the God that you pray to are the same entity?

How is it "more plausible" when it goes against what we know in the real world? Why not?

quote:

---

Psalm 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

---

Why are you assuming an all-wise and logical Deity in the first place? So it's just another copout to escape the obvious nonsense of conventional theology.

Well, worshiping God is a nonsensical concept to begin with. How petty is He that He needs or wants to be worshiped?

It can't be obedience. You claim that we're supposed to use our free will. That would make sense if the commander was anywhere near the battlefield. But a commander sitting in the Pentagon often messes things up for the soldier on the actual battlefield who has experience of that particular battlefield. Clearly not. People who don't follow your religion - or any religion at all - get along just fine with no need for your god. How can there be a rational belief in something that has no evidence to support it? What good is reason unless it is grounded in reality? So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?

Believers are the first ones to tell us we can't understand Him - mysterious ways and all that. It seems to be more about forcing them to accept YOUR hypothetical and not allowing any questions about it. Of course it isn't. Why are you guys so sensitive about being irrational? My choice of ice cream isn't rational; I don't feel any need to pretend that it is. Back to your first question. His "mysterious ways" are not rational by our standards. That's why you use the mysterious ways copout in the first place. It seems to me that open theism is just a new name for the same old copout.

It has nothing to do with different thought processes. Believers tell EVERYBODY that God works in mysterious ways. That's their excuse for anything they can't explain - i.e. anything that doesn't make sense. Again, it has nothing to do with who knows more. I'm talking about what believers think they know and the excuses they make for not knowing. For science-minded people, assumptions are based on evidence. Real knowledge is a web of inter-connected strands, each of which can be traced back to evidence. It is not an Indian rope trick.

Let's not be too optimistic about the "finally".

Argumentum ad body-countum.

That's what people are telling you: the murders ordered by God in the Old Testament were not justice. Only a morally confused person would say they were. And only a morally confused God would order murder in the name of justice.

Not true. For example, there is little historical support for the conquest of Canaan. The Israelites made up a fictional war which they won. No war, no victors.

That's your "free will" thing shooting you in the foot. What would the Israelites "learn" if God defeated all of their enemies for them? What did they learn by committing their own genocides?

Same thing when the New Testament talks about Jesus. Why do you dismiss what Moses supposedly made up and then swallow hook, line and sinker what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John claim were "eyewitness" accounts?

Then why do you dismiss it?

I certainly do not. I'm asking why YOU take some parts of it literally - e.g. the death and resurrection of Jesus - and throw away the parts you don't like - e.g. God's genocides. That sentence is nonsensical. How can it be for you but not for you? The same applies to Jesus, 2000 years ago. He might well have something different to say to us now. By your logic, He might very well be wearing a Make America Great Again hat when He returns and telling you to sell everything you have to build a wall on the border. Again, the same applies to Jesus.