Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 914 of 1677 (843636)
11-19-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 910 by GDR
11-19-2018 4:43 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
You can't have even read what I wrote [] You obviously didn't read what I wrote in the post what you are supposedly replying to.
I read it twice. What's more I've read it before. It makes no difference, it still says - in terms - what it says. Even your hero CS Lewis calls it the most embarassing passage of the bible.
It's absolutely plain what it says and what it means. What's more even those thought so at the time. Your apologetics doesn't change the text or its simple meaning.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 910 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 4:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 5:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 922 of 1677 (843664)
11-20-2018 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by GDR
11-19-2018 5:27 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
Then why not say why what I said is wrong instead of just rejecting it out of hand.
I told you why it's wrong, it's in the text...
quote:
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again. Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Matthew 24)
None of that happened either within the generation of those hearing his words or when the Temple fell. Either way, your wrong.
Firstly Lewis as a Christian was primarily a Christian philosopher and not a theologian as he often pointed out.
But he's good enough to quote when it works for you.
It is also unclear as to when the Gospels were written and it is possible that they were written after 70AD but I doubt that Mark was that late. However I did give a verse by verse breakdown of how those passages were a political statement being made to the revolutionaries and the zealots of His day.
The gospels were written decades after the fact by unknown authors for unknown reasons and edited later by committees for political reasons. They are THE most unreliable source of events that you could imagine. There is no independent corroboration of any of the critical events as you would expect if they actually had happened. The entire story of resurrection is obviously a fabrication invented for political purposes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by GDR, posted 11-19-2018 5:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by Phat, posted 11-20-2018 4:19 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 948 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 925 of 1677 (843684)
11-20-2018 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by Phat
11-20-2018 4:19 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
I used to believe as Faith does--that believers are given insight and understanding that unbelievers will never see--but after honestly evaluating some of Faiths wilder beliefs concerning young earth creationism, I honestly could not buy that theory.
Well it's useful to have a living example in front of you that is as obviously totally wrong about pretty much everything - and the least said about the recent nutters' posts the better - but it should be obvious that there is absolutely no insight provided by the fact that there are 38,000 different Christian churches all with slightly, or radically, different beliefs about the belief. That is a major clue.
GDR makes more sense to me as he adheres to belief in a living Christ and a living word...which rejects Biblical Idolatry.
GDR makes more sense to you because his views are nice and modern and (don't panic) liberal. They appeal to people who need their god to be nice; they don't like the nasty OT god, so they explain him away - or as GDR admits, can't explain it at all.
You're simply doing what everybody does and picking what you want to be true, what you're most comfortable with.
And I would agree with GDR in that the authors were inspired. Otherwise it would be exactly as you say:
You have no alternative than to believe that. If you didn't, you'd be saying that the bible is purely man made and man inspired.
And I have said before that I agree with GDR that there was nothing to be gained through being simply political and making it up (or embellishing the life of an actual Jesus)
If it wasn't embellished the entire movement would have died out just like all the others had done. If it wasn't embellished a Roman Emporor wouldn't have adopted it and made it into what is now. How much more political reasoning do you need?
So I struggled with your second point, namely that Jesus was wrong about which "generation"
It's not not my point, it's Jesus's point in - allegedly - his own words. And not with words that there can be any doubt or subtlety about. Is he lying when he says he's telling the truth?
quote:
I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
The Dispensationalists rationalize that one by claiming that Jesus was addressing the Little Flock and that when he spoke in Matthew 24 he was basically teaching and addressing them. Some would say, however, that among the Biblical Dispensationalists--all of whom were (and are)Protestant, that there was a hodgepodge of discord. They wrote many books predicting a Rapture and judgement, and were all quite wrong---though they did sell millions of books.
To her credit, Faith believes more in the wisdom and insight of the Theologians who signed the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy signed by over 200 evangelical leaders. The other guys--the booksellers such as Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffries, and others---were not in any sort of accord as were the Chicago group. As I was googling information for my response, I came upon a Catholic website that denounced the dispensationalists and the rapture theology which i found interesting: Five Myths About the Rapture and the Left Behind Industry. So what am I to conclude so far? In summation, I think it all boils down to belief since we have no solid objective evidence. As you say, we all make stuff up if we want to believe certain things apart from the plain text and in context. GDR presents us with a fairly believable Jesus. Faith insists upon a literal God with literal reasons why He judges.
You've just made my point - the believers are not inspired.
My own personal jury is still out regarding the exact character of the God whom I believe in. I am quite sure that He exists.
And you'll find something that suits your personalty best. Or, more likely, argue, worry, debate and agonise about it forever, whils simultaneously ignoring the actual evidence and believing it all anyway.
There's an aphorism used here a lot - absense of evidence is not evidence of absence - it's bunkum. An absence of evidence where you would expect to find it if something was true IS evidence of absence. IF all those things had actually happened we would have evidence of them from many sources.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by Phat, posted 11-20-2018 4:19 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 933 by Faith, posted 11-21-2018 12:36 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 954 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 2:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 931 of 1677 (843728)
11-20-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 929 by Phat
11-20-2018 12:28 PM


Re: What I Know Very Well
Phat writes:
Based on that, there is no way that you ever could have been a "saved" Christian since you never had evidence. What makes people become believers is the ability to suspend evidence in an objective sense and allow the subjective feelings to dominte. Rarely if ever have I heard of anyone becoming a believer against their will and intention.
How many times Phat?
With very few exceptions, people become believers in whatever faith they have because their parents and culture taught them to, usually from birth. As a child, you believe what you are told to believe. That's the only reason why you're a Christian and not, say, a Muslim.
I was born and raised a Catholic and of course I believed all the stuff Catholics believe until I didn't. I stopped believing because I saw through the whole pile of twaddle in my early teens.
Ringo's story may be similar or it may be like my kids who were not brought up as Christians (but not as atheists either) and have not become believers. It's quite simple.
I rarely give Zeus a second thought.
Well exactly. And more importantly you can say the same thing about Allah and all the other more obviously believed in gods. You didn't choose Christianity it was chosen for you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 929 by Phat, posted 11-20-2018 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 955 of 1677 (843890)
11-22-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 948 by GDR
11-22-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
If this is about Jesus coming to Earth and bringing about the end of time then why would he tell people to hide out in the mountains, not return for their cloak, hope that it not happen in winter, not to take time to gather their possessions etc.? All of these only make sense if He is talking about a very earthly war.
The bible is riddled with contradictions, but I'm just going to quote right back what he actually says....you know the bit about the 'coming of the Son of Man (note capitals), stars falling from skies, 'all the people on earth mourn(ing) when they see the Son of Man coming on clouds of heaven with great glory etc.
You can wriggle and squirm all you like, that is describing the second coming or it's nothing at all.
quote:
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
We all have to work things out for ourselves.
Right, you all have to make things up that suits you. I agree.
It isn't that the Gospels were written decades later but were "compiled" from the original sources decades later.
They were written decades later. Two of them are later copies of the first. The fourth is extreemly late and shows how emebellished the stories became. Compare Mark to Matthew in the passages above, Matthew has added all sorts of flowery stuff that condems it as fiction.
Prior to the stories being written they were passed on through generations of a verbal games of telephone around campfires. The actual words are written in a language Jesus didn't even speak by authors we don't know from third, fourth, hundred removed hearsay. And THEN edited by an emperor for his own purposes and none of it has any independent third party corroboration. You couldn't find any worse evidence if you tried.
I'd be interested in knowing what you think the political motivation would be. It would be like raising a following in 1942 in Holland suggesting that the best way to defeat the Nazis would be to love them, turn the other cheek, invite them into your homes, etc. Not really a good political move.
This is naive. Why does Trump lie? The first part is to understand that most of it is fiction, the second is to understand that there were - as you pointed out - many attempts at the messiah thing around that time. People needed to believe that they would be delivered from their troubles. Movements start around such things and maryrs are very, very easily found. Movements are then exploited.
If I get time, I'll put to you what Muslims believe abuut Jesus and what Jews believe about Jesus, but in the meantime I'll just ask you why those two branches of the same religious tree that have the same OT books and were in the same region at the same time do not believe that Jesus was ressurected and was the One.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 948 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 1:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 959 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 5:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 964 of 1677 (843934)
11-23-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 959 by GDR
11-22-2018 5:31 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
It is all language that refers to great human tragedy and political upheaval.
It's language very clearly referring to the end of times and the return of the prophet. It says so in terms. It couldn't be clearer. The ONLY reason you are fighting the obvious is because it blows everything you believe out of the water.
as does everyone. You have concluded that there isn't enough evidence for a deity so you come to your conclusion that such an entity doesn't exist. Neither of us know that we are right.
I'm not believing or disbelieving anything, I'm reading the words in your book and showing them to you.
They were compiled from earlier material and I believe that it is more likely that they used the same material rather than copying each other.
There is absolutely no evidence of that. Pretty much all scholars accept that two of the four authors - whoever they were - had Mark's stuff in front of them when they wrote their. Between 50 and 75% has been copied.
Also you seem to agree that they are compilations from earlier material whether it be written or oral.
It had to come from somewhere, but no one actually knows because nothing was written. Maybe Mark invented the entire thing based on a concatonation of previous myths and stories.
is hardly going to give them a sense of being delivered from their troubles if they didn't believe what they were saying was true. Yes, there were other messianic movements that ended when the leaders were put to death. Your points make absolutely zero sense.
So tell me why people believed that Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse and didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. That makes no sense to you either, why does it to millions of others? Why do you think that beliefs need to make sense? The people needed to believe that they would be saved from their troubles. They were primitive, superstitious people that could be persuaded by charismatic speakers these things are easily exploited. Even today.
Interestingly enough the Quaran speaks about the virgin birth of Jesus, reveres Him as a prophet and says that He performed many miracles. It does not see as "Son of God" nor do they believe in His resurrection. The Jews do see him as a prophet. The Jews essentially see Jesus as a false prophet which in some ways is interesting as Jesus didn't see Himself as starting a new religion but as a reformer of Judaism.
Well yes, that's what I said. What they don't believe is the thing that makes you a Christian and not a Jew or a Muslim, that Christ ressurected. Why not? They were there.
Obviously not everyone had contact with the resurrected Jesus and as it wasn't anything that they would have expected of a messianic movement. Also it would be accepted at a personal cost, it isn't at all surprising that the majority didn't accept it.
The obvious and glaring reason was that the prophecy was not fulfilled as promised. Not in their generation. Simple.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 959 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 5:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 969 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 11:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 966 of 1677 (843936)
11-23-2018 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 954 by GDR
11-22-2018 2:03 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
What can't I explain?
Back up the thread you admitted that not only could you not explain God's genocides but your other great hero Pokinghorne can't either.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 954 by GDR, posted 11-22-2018 2:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 971 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 11:56 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 974 of 1677 (843962)
11-23-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 969 by GDR
11-23-2018 11:42 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
How do you explain the whole issue about heading to the hills etc. Why would you do that if it is about end times.
To be nearer God? Who knows, you book is full of these contradictions.
How do you explain the similar language in Isaiah where it is about the Babylonians.
It doesn't matter where else it is
You just keep saying that it has to be about end times without showing why you think I'm wrong and don't respond to why it isn't about that at all.
I don't have to explain anything in your book, if I do that I'm simply reinterpreting to suit myself. All I have to do is show you the words which as plain as day are all about something global and enormous and imminent and which is impossible not to mean the end times. And quite plainly that's how they were seen at the time.
You sound like Faith saying that the Bible has to be read as we understand the language now.
There's nothing in the language then or now that needs to be read any other way. It's not nuanced, it's not ambiguous it's very straightforward and easily understood.
You want it both ways. If you are arguing with Faith it's nonsense to read it as inerrant and you argue with me as if that's the only way to understand it.
You're not listening. I'm pointing out to both of you that it's all a pile of made up nonsense.
Well there's no evidence one way or the other. It could be they had Mark but it is also possible that they were compiled from the same sources.
There's no evidence of any prior written document. That's the end of it. All that's known is that the others replay what is in Mark.
It was in 70 AD.
It was NOT. The events used by Jesus have not happen at any time from the beginning of time to now. Reread them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 11:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 981 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 5:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 984 of 1677 (843998)
11-23-2018 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 981 by GDR
11-23-2018 5:10 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
Your argument is like something out of Alice in Wonderland. "Words mean what I say they mean".
It's the opposite of course, I'm saying that the words mean what they say. Not a self-serving evasion or re-interpretation but simply quoting what the words say, all I'm doing is copying and pasting the words.
You mean language like "sky darkened", stars falling from the sky" and "the moon will not give off it's light" is supposed to be taken literally.
Absolutely, it's the bloody end of times! The Son of Man is returning
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
This is Jesus describing the end of times. It's absolute bollox, but it's as plain as day. It's not dissmissable as hyperbole or flowery language - it's supposed to be a real event. And it hasn't happened yet.
You're saying that they have to take flight from the end of the world. You have just decided what it means and don't want to be confused with facts.
I really, really don't want to get into interpreting this crap - that's your job, but if I have to put my own meaning on this...
Jesus was in the Temple, he tells his disciples that the Temple will be destroyed - not one brick etc. They ask when. He waffles on about bad times and false prophets and finally gets to the point and tells them it'll be 'When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel' ie the destruction of the Temple. So better get the hell out of Judea because it's going to be pretty shitty.
THEN 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken etc etc '
So immediately after the Temple falls comes the return of yer man with his angels and trumpets etc. And ...So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.'
So wars and desoltation, persecution, false prophets get out of town, head to the hills. When the Temple falls, the return of the king, the end of days, all within the lives of the people listening to him. Simple reading of what is said and what is written.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by GDR, posted 11-23-2018 5:10 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 992 by GDR, posted 11-24-2018 10:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 996 of 1677 (844089)
11-25-2018 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 992 by GDR
11-24-2018 10:15 PM


Re: Matthew 24
GDR writes:
It isn't about the Son of Man returning. It is about the Son of Man coming and it's coming to the Father as talked about in Daniel 7.
And yet it actually says that the Son of Man coming to the people Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come
quote:
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
But in any case that didn't happen either! It doesn't matter which way you spin it, it didn't happen! [We'd know]
I don’t believe that Jesus had supernatural knowledge of the future.
You, like all others believe what you prefer, it has no effect on the words written, all it does is demonstrate why there are 38,000 formal variants of what Christians believe and billions of individual ones. Because just like the original words, you're all making it up.
Frankly, if the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple hadn’t happened within a generation it wouldn’t affect my faith.
Of course it wouldn't. Just like real in your face proof that the earth is not 6,000 years old doesn't affect Faith's. You're oblivious to evidence.
I realize it suits your position on Christianity to be able to look at those passages and say that Jesus with supernatural knowledge Jesus was predicting the end of the world so you can claim victory because it didn’t happen. If you want to set up a straw man and knock down feel free
Heresy! Jesus wasn't a prophet! You're kidding right? Jesus has no supernatural knowledge, 'he just a very naughty boy'. Oh come on. So he was lying when he said all that stuff, making all those future predictions?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 992 by GDR, posted 11-24-2018 10:15 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1019 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 1:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1005 of 1677 (844115)
11-25-2018 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1001 by Phat
11-25-2018 1:20 PM


Re: Is Cherries The Goal?
Phat writes:
Not necessarily made up, unless you dismiss the actual event to begin with.
There need be no event at all.
For example you've got the modern invention of Mormonism. Obviously a total invention but now believed by 15m people. It really doesn't take much, people are desperate for this hokum.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1001 by Phat, posted 11-25-2018 1:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1023 of 1677 (844201)
11-26-2018 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1019 by GDR
11-26-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Matthew
GDR writes:
Once again you're reading this with a 21st century understanding.
Am I supposed to accept that you're reading it with a 1st century understanding?
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth.
The words say the opposite all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I've said before. All religion is man made. In the case of Christianity it is based on the belief that there is one creator god that is a god of love and that He resurrected Jesus, who embodied His nature perfectly or to put it another way carried God's spiritual DNA. Then we factor in the Bible and how to understand that and so yes, there probably aren't 2 Christians anywhere, (who have put in any time to actually study the whole thing), that will agree on everything.
Well it looks like this god of yours found the least convincing method of communicating his message imaginable.
I didn't say He wasn't a prophet. I am saying that He foretold the future in the same way that you or I might tell the future.
You mean by guessing? You call that prophecy? I can do that.
A prophet is essentially one who puts into words the will and nature of God and then using that wisdom project the likelihood of what that will mean in the future. The future is open and unknowable with certainty, but Jesus could, and we can, forecast future events based on what we do know in the present.
You've demoted you god-man to just any other guy predicting his teams score at the weekend

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1019 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 1:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 5:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1031 of 1677 (844209)
11-26-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1029 by GDR
11-26-2018 5:16 PM


Re: Matthew
GDR writes:
Actually yes. I have read a great deal of the work of N T Wright who is a first century historian, knowing ancient and Greek Latin and Hebrew, and is considered one of the, if not the, leading New Testament scholar in the world. (That of course is opinion but quoting Newsweek N T Wright is "the world's leading New Testament scholar".)
Fabulous, should I now wheel out my favourite 1st century scholar to contradict him? This is speculation based on a fantasy.
And speaking of fantasy
The destruction will be the vindication and the confirmation of Christ's anti-revolutionary message and so they will then see and understand the Kingdom message spoken of Daniel 7, a message that is for all nations.
You told us that
It is Jesus coming to the Father, (the Ancient of Days), not coming to Earth.
But instead the actual words say
quote:
all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
They see the Son of Man coming FROM heaven TO earth.
I quote the words, you tell me that they don't mean what they say beacuse you read a book telling you that despite what the words say, they meant exactly the opposite to a 1st century Jew.
So much for god's universal message.
Sure, although it is more than guessing, and more about applying knowledge of a given situation and predicting the future.
I wonder how many other Christians recognise this totally human god of yours. Jesus the pundit. Place your bets here.
I believe that Jesus was a man who embodied the spiritual DNA of God the Father to whom He prayed. This same God performed miracles through the man Jesus, that God resurrected Jesus and gave Him dominion over the Kingdom of all nations metaphorically as per Daniel 7.
How is what you believe relevant?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 7:01 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1039 of 1677 (844242)
11-27-2018 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by GDR
11-26-2018 7:01 PM


Re: Matthew
GDR writes:
It is a universal message,
I suppose you're right in a way, in that apparently it can be interpreted anyway anybody wants. That's as universal as it's possible to get.
It helps of course that the belivers can delude themselves and so turn black into white like you just did by saying that when it says that the Son of Man is coming to earth From heaven it actually means that he's going from earth back to his Father IN heaven. And this is because of a prophecy centuries before. That is genuinely worrying.
it is originally written in the language and understanding of a 1st century Jew.
This reminds me of something Hitchens used to say - something like 'there's nothing written in the bible that couldn't have been written by a man in that time'. What he's saying is that the bible was an opportunity to give the world a message that eveyone would undertand no matter what era they were born in. It would contain things that only people of different times could understand. It doesn't do any of that, it's specific to its time.
I am simply working at sorting out what I believe to be true as are all of us who think about this stuff.
Yes, you're making stuff up and others are making different stuff up. What kind of message is that apart from a rubbish one?
It seems to me that were are in a lot of ways we are experiencing a reformation of Christianity that largely takes us back to the Christianity of Paul and the early church.
The result of the questioning of the bible - that has only been allowed to happen by the intitutions of religion in the last couple of hundred years - has been a massive decline in its power and membership. It's been exposed to the light and it hasn't benefitted from it.
I suppose that it's very relevant to this discussion. How are your beliefs relevant?
What you or I believe is irrelevant to whether what is written in the bible is true. All I've been doing is cutting and pasting the text and trying to get you to accept it's plain meaning. In return you tell us what you believe in means according to your interpretation based on somebody else's interpretaion of what a 1st century Jew might believe about a previous dodgy prophesy in a different book.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by GDR, posted 11-26-2018 7:01 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1088 of 1677 (844630)
12-03-2018 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1085 by GDR
12-02-2018 10:58 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
I’m not diminishing the OT but when we look at the passages that say that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning and compare that to Jesus’ message such as love your enemy, we have to either go with Jesus or a scribe centuries earlier. I choose Jesus. I know some try but you can’t have it both ways. They are incompatible.
You've said this before a couple of times, it's a rather interesting psychological ruse. When referring to to New Testament it's a wonderous wotk inspired by God, but when describing the Old Testament it's hand-waved away as something unimportant written by an inferred lowly scribe centuries before - and by inference presumably no longer God's Word.
That's real confirmation bias at work, cherry pick what you like downgrade and reject what you don't, because, of course, it's all supposedly the Word of God and it's all written by scribes and its all written centuries ago.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by GDR, posted 12-02-2018 10:58 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1094 by GDR, posted 12-03-2018 2:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024