Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
The problem is, as I have said numerous times, the Bible isn't a book. It is a library of books written by different authors, in different times and in a changing culture in changing circumstances.
Yes, we all know that. It's been repeated by pretty much everyone here for years. It doesn't help you.
So yes, it is very reasonable to understand different books the Bible differently.
Is it? I'd certainly agree if it was fiction, but the Word of God?
As I have also said before, it is Christianity not Bibleianity.
Well that's a good bumper sticker but the bible is all you've got. How you rationalise the difficult stuff away is interesting to watch.
I understand the entire Bible through the lens of Jesus, and what we have recorded of His life and message in the Gospels.
Sure, so you throw away the OT as just something some scribes wrote while the something some other scribes wrote is the Truth.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
The point is that we can understand different parts of the Bible differently.
So I'll just repeat what I said, I'd certainly agree if it was fiction, but the Word of God?
The Bible can be understood differently by different people is self-evidently true given the absurdity of beliefs that now exist amongst even Christians. But the question is why? Why would god - who can do anything - obscure his message so badly that anybody can make pretty much anything they like out of it?
Why make it all so damn unconvincing? Why make it look as if it's all a fabrication? Why make it look entirely man made? 'As though it was written by scribes?' Why not give us something that would prove its provenance down the ages? Why do something so bloody useless?
As I've said in other posts I don't throw away the OT. It is crucial to understand what Jesus has to say as He was steeped in it and makes constant references to it that would be understood by His Jewish audience. However, as I have said, to understand the OT you need the NT and particularly the Gospels.
You're dissembling, you've already told us that the OT was merely written by scribes centuries before so that you can mentally put it aside and choose the bits you like - gentle Jesus, meak and mild.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
The Bible was man made.
Yes, I know! The question is why? If god wants to send a message to the world why use a man to deliver it? Why choose a method that he knows will be corrupted and polluted every which way. It's totally unbelieveable.
CS Lewis wrote this in his book Miracles.
CS Lewis knows no more about it than you or I do. He has no other source of information. He's just doing what you do- making stuff up and picking and choosing.
The Bible was written not only by scribes.
No one knows who wrote the bible. But it was you who handwaved the OT away as merely written by scribes centuries earlier than the NT in order to chose the nicer NT.
You want absolute knowledge. Absolute clarity would essentially remove our free will to choose what it is we base our lives on.
What utter bollocks. Are you telling me that this god guy wanted to tell us the most important thing possible to know but did it in such an obscure way that anybody can make anything of it - from Faith to Atheist? What nonsense, what a pathetic vision of a god.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
While you're waiting for Percy to reply, I'd say that the only difference between a deist and an atheist is the final random coin toss.
Neither of them know, both go one way or the other depending on their personal psychology.
If I was being nasty, I'd say that a deist is an atheist without the courage of their convictions. For all practical purposes there's no diference between a god that has no interest in us and no god at all.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I'm mad at Tangle because he is so cocksure that atheism is his best option.
That's a bit odd. I can understand you being mad at me for being sure atheism was YOUR best option. But why are you mad at me for being sure it's my best option?
He claims that nobody can know any more about the God of the Bible than anyone else...which is technically true
Fair enough, it's irritating when the other guy is right...
but which shows extreme disrespect to those who study, pray, philosophize, and think about such matters
'Extreme disrespect' - sheesh, if you think expressing opinions on a well behaved web forum is extreme you've had a very sheltered life
while he (Tangle) simply goes fishing and acts like his answers are THE answers.
There is no spoon Phat.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
You are only right if God does not, in fact, exist
Nope, it only matters if god exists and he turns out to be out and out arsehole of the OT. And let's face it, if he is, we're all fucked.
If he's something approximating to GDR's god, so long as we lead a decent life we're all fine.
Perhaps I am angry that He never favors me...
Ah yes the ancient lie, Allah will provide. Every religion everwhere. Yet children still starve, the old die lonely, illness thrives. The only improvements to our lives are man made.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
If that were the case as so many atheists think of Him, the world would long since have blown to smithereens and we wouldn't be here to talk about it. Or probably would never have been created, because that was an act of love.
Well according to your belief, your god DID obliterate us all at least once. But I agree, it's absurd, no such god exists so it'll be fine.
Weird how what is true of Christianity alone is always being imputed to other religions which are nothing like Christianity.
Given that religions are the universal comforter, it's not remotely surprising that they all say 'don't worry, muumy will look after you,.
I don't think Allah is ever spoken of in terms of his providence,
Then you're just plain wrong. Who'd have thought that could happen?
quote:Umar said, I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, say, ‘If you were to rely on Allah as He should be relied on, He would provide for you as He provides for the birds. They go out early in the morning hungry and return in the evening full.’
quote:And whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty).
And He will provide him from (sources) he never could imagine.
[al-Talaq 65:2-3]
only the God of the Bible is -- both benevolent providences and "frowning" providences are recognized. And for that matter the whole idea of faith itself only makes sense within the context of Biblical Christianity where we are called to believe many promises about God's nature and our future, requiring us to depend on God through our faith in those things. Nothing like that exists in any other religion but unbelievers just love to pretend it's all the same.
Turns out you're wrong again ma'am
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Why should God be useful to humanity?
In the same why as any father would be useful to his son? Particulary one that claims to love them.
Should it not be the other way around?
How could that possibly work?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Being useful to God?
Yeh, like you said.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Re: Ringo Will Explain How God Would Hypothetically Intervene
Phat writes:
He left us a message and then backed off for a few thousand years to see what we did with it.
What?
We know that H. Sapiens have been around for at least 200,000 years, so he didn't care until 2,000 years ago?
But that stupidity apart, he KNOWS what will happen - he's all knowing! Why torture us just to find out what happens next - when he already knows anyway?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Doesn't look like Faith is going to be raptured this year, but there's a few days left. I'm still betting no.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
I'm going back to my former position of never trying to figure out when it's going to happen.
That's certainly the only way you're not going to be wrong.
I haven't had any more of those "clues" however.
I bet you have, you just don't notice now because you've decided not to.
It was quite a blitz of them for a while there.
Or, you decided to attribute perfectly ordinary events as omens. Which you obviously did as you're still here.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Oh I was certainly wrong about Rosh Hashanah, but the Rapture is going to happen eventually, and if it happens in our time you'll have to admit YOU were wrong.
Crazies have been saying that for at least 2,000 years. The evidence is on my side.
It's true that I mostly forgot about it
When you buy a new car you notice all the cars like yours. After a while you 'forget'. But the number of cars like yours doesn't change. Perception is influenced by your mental attunement to a particular circumstance. Try this:
Sorry, such a consistent theme is not "ordinary" but obviously I was taking them for something they weren't.
They are very ordinary, people find meaning in anything if they look for it. Jesus image on a piece of toast? You're denying the evidence of your very own experience.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
Do you have an equal confidence level that the universe contains no God?
Like everyone else, I have no idea whether a god exists or even what it could be if it did. I'm absolutely sure though, that if it does exist, it's got nothing to do with anything any of our religions say about it.
Or do we all have to first arrive at a consensus of what such a Deity would be defined as?
How can an imaginary deity be defined by consensus?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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