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Author Topic:   Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1060 of 1677 (844410)
11-29-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1058 by GDR
11-28-2018 7:03 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
I am simply saying that whether they believed it or not, these happenings were not commanded by God.
And I am simply saying that there's no reason for believing that, no more reason than there is for believing that Jesus was an example of the "real" God.
GDR writes:
I guess we all pick our favourite flavour in one way or another.. None of us have absolute knowledge.
And you're clearly making up a God that is palatable to you.
Edited by ringo, : Spellyng.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1058 by GDR, posted 11-28-2018 7:03 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1063 by GDR, posted 11-29-2018 2:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1071 of 1677 (844455)
11-30-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1063 by GDR
11-29-2018 2:17 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
As I have said before my Christian faith is based essentially based on two things. 1/ God is a God of love and wants us to reflect that into the world. 2/ God resurrected Jesus vindicating and confirming His life and message.
But those two points are not compatible. If God was a God of love, he could just forgive our sins. He wouldn't need to send His Son/Self to die for our sins at all. The crucifixion is proof that God is a God of blood, much more compatible with the God of the Old Testament than with your version.
GDR writes:
As I believe in the resurrection of Jesus as confirming His message about the nature of God then I can see that the position of "loving your enemy" is totally incompatible with ordering genocide and public stonings.
It isn't that hard.
It is hard because it doesn't make a lick of sense. Jesus' death was totally unnecessary and his resurrection was just a copout. "Jesus faked his death for our sins" is just preposterous.
GDR writes:
For that matter, everyone follows a god that is palatable to them.
Nonsense. There are plenty of Christians who don't like what happened in the Old Testament but they believe it happened.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by GDR, posted 11-29-2018 2:17 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1074 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:44 AM ringo has replied
 Message 1086 by GDR, posted 12-02-2018 11:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1075 of 1677 (844463)
11-30-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1074 by Phat
11-30-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Many would abuse this privilege.
So what? If you really love somebody, you open yourself up to abuse. If God defends Himself from all possibility of abuse, He is clearly NOT a God of love.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 11:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by Phat, posted 11-30-2018 12:01 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1089 of 1677 (844646)
12-03-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1086 by GDR
12-02-2018 11:47 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
Jesus seems to have come to the self understanding of His vocation through the Scriptures and through prayer.
That seems to be pretty common among evangelists.
GDR writes:
Jesus went into Jerusalem with the faith that somehow God was going to redeem what it was He was doing.
That seems to be pretty common among evangelists.
GDR writes:
He believed that by sacrificing Himself He would save many.
"Saved' from what, exactly? The wrath of God?
GDR writes:
By faith Jesus believed this to be His vocation, again, by faith not by absolute knowledge.
So you're reducing Jesus to the level of any other evangelist.
GDR writes:
People, not God crucified Jesus and it was God that resurrected Him.
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't God just prevent the crucifixion?
GDR writes:
He didn't fake death He died. God resurrected Him....
If He didn't stay dead, that's a fake death. Losing your wallet with your ID and finding it again is not the same as losing it for good.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1086 by GDR, posted 12-02-2018 11:47 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 12-03-2018 12:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1095 by GDR, posted 12-03-2018 3:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1092 of 1677 (844656)
12-03-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1090 by Phat
12-03-2018 12:48 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
If your biological processes cease, you are dead.
You should know better than that. People dying temporarily is pretty common these days. But if they don't stay dead, they're not dead.
Phat writes:
Are you claiming that the only way a person could live again later is if the biological processes did not actually cease?
It isn't a claim. It's a fact. If some processes stop - e.g. breathing or heartbeat - they can be started up again. If some other processes stop, particularly the electro-chemical processes, they can not be reversed - i.e. the person isn't only merely dead, he's really most sincerely dead.
Phat writes:
And are you implying that God was being deceptive?
Or, more likely, the authors who wrote about it were making it up.
Phat writes:
The problem with your reasoning is that you assume that humans already know what death is and is not (due to science) and thus that Jesus could not have actually died.
My reasoning is not that He didn't die. My reasoning is that He didn't rise from the dead. That is sound reasoning because people don't rise from the dead. If He APPEARED to rise from the dead - i.e. if the authors were not just making it up - then He was never really dead.
In any case, the bottom line is the same: A death that doesn't last is not a significant death.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1090 by Phat, posted 12-03-2018 12:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by xongsmith, posted 12-03-2018 1:32 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1114 by Phat, posted 12-06-2018 12:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1111 of 1677 (844802)
12-05-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1095 by GDR
12-03-2018 3:09 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
GDR writes:
No other evangelist that we know of expected and was resurrected.
Correction: NO evangelist that we know of was resurrected. You can believe that Billy Graham was resurrected but that doesn't make it so.
GDR writes:
How many lives have been saved in the centuries since then, from people and nations who have to some degree or another taken on that message.
And how many lives have been lost because one sect interpreted a jot or a tittle differently from another sect?
GDR writes:
It seems that God responds, which He did by resurrecting Jesus, but He doesn't intervene.
That seems like a pretty stupid strategy. "Free will" is not much of an excuse for God being irresponsible.
GDR writes:
In terms of what we consider death He died.
And in terms of what we consider death, He was not resurrected. You can't have it both ways.
GDR writes:
Resurrection is about new life....
That's just fiction.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1095 by GDR, posted 12-03-2018 3:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1112 of 1677 (844803)
12-05-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Phat
12-04-2018 12:53 PM


Re: If I'm raptured there will be millions of others raptured too
Phat writes:
And what do you think of my progressive revelation theory? I've essentially placed you as more evolved spiritually than are the believers.
I prefer to do away with the concept of spirituality entirely.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Phat, posted 12-04-2018 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1118 of 1677 (844878)
12-07-2018 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by Phat
12-06-2018 12:48 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
Thats what makes someone become a believer---when the known evidence is refuted before their eyes.
But it hasn't been.
Phat writes:
The story appears to be more symbolic. Symbolism can be significant if accepted. Evidence-based skeptics rarely if ever accept unevidenced claims.
Skeptics accept symbolism. I don't argue against the symbolic existence of Jesus or the symbolic death of Jesus or the symbolic resurrection of Jesus.
Phat writes:
I guess I cant really blame you for being an atheist.
I'm not an atheist.
Phat writes:
If you were to ever change, your ideas/beliefs would have to die before new ideas/beliefs could replace them.
That would be like breaking an egg. Picture yourself returning to a belief in Santa Claus and the Three Talking Bears.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by Phat, posted 12-06-2018 12:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1127 by Phat, posted 12-08-2018 4:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1133 of 1677 (844966)
12-09-2018 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1127 by Phat
12-08-2018 4:25 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Picture yourself returning to a belief in Santa Claus and the Three Talking Bears.
I don't look at Christianity that immaturely....
Why not? What's the difference?
Phat writes:
I simply look at the fact that we humans have no business trying to define a universe...
If we don't define it, who will?
Phat writes:
... and ignore the logical concept of a Creator/Higher Intelligence Who just happens to care about us.
He doesn't seem to care about the people of Syria, etc.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1127 by Phat, posted 12-08-2018 4:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1134 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1135 of 1677 (844969)
12-09-2018 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Phat
12-09-2018 2:06 PM


Re: Giving It All Up and Urging Everyone To Do Likewise
Phat writes:
God cant simply fix every problem that humans themselves create for themselves.
How can you claim He "cares about us" if He can help and doesn't?
Phat writes:
Why should God be useful to humanity?
If he isn't useful, what difference does it make if He exists? We might as well just ignore Him.
Phat writes:
Should it not be the other way around?
What "use" would we be to an omnipotent God?
Phat writes:
How can you claim not to be an atheist?
I don't self-identify as an atheist. I know that some people use "lack of belief" as a definition but I don't think it's adequate to define me. I could possibly be a deist but I don't really understand that position.
Phat writes:
You obviously are not a believer...except in the message.
And you don't seem to believe in the message.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1137 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1138 of 1677 (844973)
12-09-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1137 by Phat
12-09-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Ringo Will Explain How God Would Hypothetically Intervene
Phat writes:
In what ways would He help? Be specific. Lets take the war in Syria...
He could make all the guns stop working.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1137 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1141 of 1677 (844976)
12-09-2018 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1140 by Phat
12-09-2018 2:36 PM


Re: Ringo Will Explain How God Would Hypothetically Intervene
Phat writes:
Then what? The knives become dull? The chainsaws only magically cut trees and not arms and legs? How far would this magic go?
If God is omnipotent, it goes all the way.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1140 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:36 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1142 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 1143 of 1677 (844978)
12-09-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1142 by Phat
12-09-2018 2:48 PM


Re: Ringo Will Explain How God Would Hypothetically Intervene
Phat writes:
We would become zombies.
Nonsense.
Phat writes:
The whole point of free will is to allow your creation to learn on its own...
What do children learn from being killed?
Phat writes:
So far we still have wars, school shootings, and many terrible things that we created.
Most of them started by believers. So what's your point?
Phat writes:
Looks like His experiment is over...now He will return to set things straight, right?
So what's the difference between setting things straight now and setting things straight right from the beginning? How are believers less zombified in Heaven?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1142 by Phat, posted 12-09-2018 2:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1159 of 1677 (845027)
12-10-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1157 by Phat
12-10-2018 12:15 PM


Re: Tangles Real World Certainties
Phat writes:
Genesis 11:1-9 describes such a common imagination.
The Tower of Babel story doesn't describe a "common imagination" about God. It's about building an impressive tower to make a name for themselves:
quote:
Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1157 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 12:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1160 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 4:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1166 of 1677 (845058)
12-11-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1160 by Phat
12-10-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Tangles Real World Certainties
Phat writes:
Essentially they all agreed. They all had a common plan.
But you said in Message 1154, "Or do we all have to first arrive at a consensus of what such a Deity would be defined as?" Genesis 11 doesn't say there was a consensus about God. There was a consensus about a city and a tower.
Phat writes:
For some reason, being in unity without including God in the plan (or imagination) was a no-no.
It doesn't say that the people were thinking about God at all.
Phat writes:
People can choose to ignore God individually...that's between them and reality. Problems arise when they do so collectively.
The problem only arose because God was afraid of the people being united.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1160 by Phat, posted 12-10-2018 4:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1167 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 10:57 AM ringo has replied

  
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