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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 8 of 163 (845236)
12-13-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-13-2018 2:33 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
this isn't church.

Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 39 of 163 (845453)
12-15-2018 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
12-15-2018 8:42 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
If we just get about our assigned task as humans of serving and loving God’s good creation and spend less time worryinmg about who is in and who is out God would be much better served.

Comprehensive and very well said, sir!

If I wasn't such a heathen I might convert.

(nah)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 12-15-2018 8:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 12-16-2018 2:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 41 of 163 (845460)
12-16-2018 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by GDR
12-16-2018 2:53 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Oh god no.

Just a little love for a well structured post.

Merry Christmas to you as well.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 48 of 163 (845579)
12-17-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by ICANT
12-16-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
The nations are judged and separated. Some nations will be sheep nations and some will be goat nations.

Well, let's see.

In the USA we do have a school lunch program but the nation is in the midsts of trying to curtail it so I guess this nation feeds at least some of our hungry kids even if it isn't all that well. (Ketchup as vegetable anyone?) This nation couldn't care less about providing drink to our own citizens as evidenced by Flint. As for strangers, we throw them out as we catch em and are talking about building a wall to keep other strangers out. The only time the nation clothes the naked is when we throw them in jail for indecent exposure and, though sometimes this nation tries to help the sick at other times we take away as many public health care programs as we can. And, unless you have a public defender, no one from this nation ever visits you in prison except the guards and the warden and I doubt that counts in this case.

The big thing about the good ol USofA is that we insist on sending our troops around the world to kill brown people, take their food, their water, make them sick and naked and throw them in prison to be alone.

That's got to be pretty goaty in the eyes of scripture.

Which means that you, ICANT, and your whole congregation are doomed to the lake of fire for being citizens of this goat nation regardless of your personal beliefs.


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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 49 of 163 (845581)
12-17-2018 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ringo
12-17-2018 11:23 AM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
condemn a whole nation - the good along with the bad - and exonerate another whole nation - the bad along with the good.

OK so i'm only 3 hours late.


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 Message 47 by ringo, posted 12-17-2018 11:23 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 57 of 163 (845653)
12-18-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
12-17-2018 8:46 PM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
I will have already been judged at the judgment seat of Christ.

So there are two judgement days? One for individuals and one for nations? How about one for atheists, one for Iowa alumni and one for rotarians? Can we have these too?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 66 of 163 (845745)
12-19-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tanypteryx
12-19-2018 3:22 PM


Because it's interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-19-2018 3:22 PM Tanypteryx has responded

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 68 of 163 (845749)
12-19-2018 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tanypteryx
12-19-2018 4:37 PM


Ok if you say so.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 92 of 163 (847774)
01-26-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
01-26-2019 2:04 PM


I should imagine that with that number of doors one is bound to come across someone from a rival cult who thinks you're a heretic. Better to shoot first and turn the other cheek later.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 94 of 163 (877586)
06-18-2020 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
06-18-2020 6:21 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Far enough to learn I can make numbers say anything I want them to say.

But not far enough to understand how/why science limits mathematics. Not far enough to understand why the models (math) science uses are productive to an exceptional degree of confidence.

Also I know that the math says the universe had a beginning to exist as the math got to a point called singularity as it made no sense and could not predict anything, or give any information.

No, our visible universe is telling us it had an earlier state. The math is just a tool we use to follow where the evidence the universe shows us leads.

The "singularity" is not a real thing. It is what we call that area of our ignorance where our models cannot yet follow where the universe is pointing.

how the law of thermodynamics could be dispensed with so the universe could be eternally existing in the past without being a dead frozen planet by now?

Entropy as we know it applies only to this, our visible, universe. This is not, as far as we know, an "eternally existing" universe. We have no idea what "universe" came before or if there are others in existence right now. Entropy was exceptionally low in *our* big bang and has been increasing ever since.

Our experience of entropy applies *only* to this universe. You can not use entropy to deny the beginning of this, our visible, universe. In fact, the laws of thermodynamics are strong lines of evidence in favor of an inflationary big bang state in both our standard Lambda-CDM model and Penrose's CCC (conformal cyclic cosmology) model of this universe.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2020 6:21 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 102 of 163 (877662)
06-19-2020 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
06-19-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Science does not limit numbers. They are limitless.

This has nothing to do with this discussion.

Science limits the mathematics that can be used. The "numbers" I refer to are the formulae. The equations of physics. The models physics builds from observation.

You say you know enough math to make the numbers say anything you want. But, science limits the mathematics. No matter how much you may fiddle your numbers and want there to be 12 eggs you are strictly limited to 4 if the science says there are only 4.

Actually Stephen Hawking said the beginning of this universe would be governed by the laws of Physics

That is right. And that includes entropy. And that is limited, as are all the laws of this universe as far as we can tell, to operating in this our visible universe.

And all that means that this our visible universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago and no amount of misapplication of those laws is going to change that fact.

No one knows what happened or what systems operated prior to the planck time (10-44)

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:16 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:16 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 108 of 163 (877702)
06-20-2020 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Are you sure the scientist and the facts are not what limits the numbers.

Heavy on the facts. That is what "the science" refers to. That is what the science is.

The science limits the mathematics that can be used in our models.

Formulae's are created by scientist and mathematicians according to their assumptions.

Correction ... according to their observations.

Assumptions are very rarely used and then only logically justifyable assumptions are used that are consistent with the observations and do not violate known laws or facts. Even then the discipline will scrutinize those assumptions for weaknesses or self-serving biases in peer review.

Science has nothing to do with there only being 4 eggs in the basket if you only put 4 eggs in the basket. The fact that there is 4 eggs in the basket determines how many eggs are in the basket.

Hypothesis: There are 12 eggs in the basket.
Test and observation: Collect data. Count the eggs.
Facts determined: There are 4 eggs in the basket.
Conclusion: The hypothesis is disproved. There are 4 eggs in the basket.

Science.

Read his statement carefully. He says the beginning of the universe will be controlled by the law of Physics. That means the laws of Physics was in effect before there was any energy because that energy would be controlled by the laws of Physics.

Yes, Read his statement. The beginning of the universe will be controlled by the Physics. Not by majik. And not even the great Dr. Hawking can tell us what that physics was because *our* laws of physics apply *ONLY* inside this universe.

No one can say that an enormous concentration of energy prior to 10-44 can not have been achieved. No one knows how the physics prior to 10-44 operated.

No one knows what happened or what systems operated prior to the planck time (10-44)

Do we not know or just refuse to accept the facts.

What "facts" would those be?

There had to be existence and in that existence there had to be enough energy to create the universe we have today, according to the laws of Physics. "Energy can not be created or destroyed."

That restriction applies only to our universe, not prior.

Energy can not be created or destroyed in our universe. All bets are off when speaking otherwise.

Despite the usual catechism you and I both can reasonably speculate there had to have been a "before" 10-44. But no one, Reverend, no one can put any embellishment or restriction on what physics operated then and how. Any of the laws of physics we have devised can only be said to operate in this universe, not "before".

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 124 of 163 (877779)
06-21-2020 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ICANT
06-21-2020 3:06 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ringo writes:
It was a "belief" to Einstein, as you say yourself. It was not supported by science.

But prior to Hubble discovering that the universe was expanding Einstein's belief was the scientific view.

I take exception to ringo on this one.

At the time, the only evidence available, all the scientific evidence, led to the conclusion that our universe was static, eternal and was the size of what we would later call our galaxy.

Einstein's blunder was not in adding a cosmological constant to GR but was in ignoring what his equations were telling him. The universe was not static and eternal but was dynamic and bounded. He gave in to his bias for a static universe instead of following what the new science was telling him.

Now if you know of any evidence I could examine that supports a better solution to the problem of where all that energy came from I would like to read about it.

There isn't any. There never was. The only thing we have are speculations.

As you keep pointing out thermodynamics requires entropy to be very low and energy to be exceptionally high at the beginning in order for this universe to operate as we see it today.

How that was achieved has not been, and may never be, adequately explained.

Your contention that *our* physics extends back before 10-44 and precludes such high energy at the beginning is obviously false since the big bang inflationary state stems from precisely this condition.

Where there are no observations there can only be assumptions.

Are you saying extensions of physical timelines and conditions based on our demonstrably reliable equations and simulations are assumptions and not observations?

I'm sure your religious sensibilities believe that, like assumptions of dinosaurs and a young Earth, anything we didn't see didn't happen, but the rest of society, especially the scientific community, strenuously rejects such an absurd contention.

What idiot would form such a Hypothesis if he put four eggs in the basket to begin with.

You're the one who put the eggs in the basket. I'm the scientist trying to figure out the reality.

The point remains that the science limits the math we can use. You are not allowed to just pull equations from your ass.

Which would mean that the energy used to create the universe had to be created. Which the laws of Physics says can not happen.

Your misunderstanding of Dr. Hawking's lecture seems intractable. So be it.

Your contention that he claims our physics transcends the point where they cease to function is ludicrous.

There had to be existence and in that existence there had to be enough energy to create the universe we have today, according to the laws of Physics. "Energy can not be created or destroyed."

This has become another doctrine of your personal religious catechism, hasn't it.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:06 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 06-22-2020 3:05 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 127 of 163 (877843)
06-22-2020 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by ICANT
06-22-2020 12:57 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
For our universe to exist today which it does, would require and eternal unlimited source of energy to maintain the universe and hold it together.

Or it would require a physics beyond and (maybe) prior to our experience in this universe.

Or it would require the Great Flying Spaghetti Monster touching our brane-world with his noodley appendage.

Or it would require a cyclic universe effect which would become clear to us when we solve quantum gravity.

Or ...

Or ...

Or ...


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 06-22-2020 12:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 06-22-2020 3:10 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5336
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 133 of 163 (877866)
06-22-2020 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ICANT
06-22-2020 3:10 PM


Re: AZ
Where would you purpose the energy could come from in your rant?

As I said in Message 124 there is no evidence of any kind for the beginning, how t=0 came about. All there are, all there may ever be, are speculations. Our physics is not sufficient enough to even hypothesize if there was anything prior to t=0 or what physics may have operated then.

What I do know is that ancient peoples all over the world sought to explain the world in the face of their ignorance and invented deities and creation stories based on nothing but the visions and insistences of what we today would call religious zealots. I also know that what we see in the operations of this universe does not require any deities thus continuing to invoke a deity because of ancient stories or to cover our continued ignorance is intellectually repugnant.

But since you asked …

Yes, we know a lot, very accurately, about how this universe operates. We know how the forces and the quarks condensed out of the intense energies that existed after the inflationary epoch. We know how matter and stars and planets and people came to be. There are still holes in our knowledge but for the most part the history and operations of this universe are very well understood.

But, I know our present physics is woefully inadequate to understand the origins and full operations of this universe.

My hope, my speculation, is that as human intellect and technology progress we will uncover the physics that answers the origins questions. And when we find those answers I believe they will be totally surprising, totally unforeseen and will lead to even bigger greater questions we didn’t even know to ask.

Unfortunately, I won’t be around to see this play out and I have grave concerns whether humanity will survive long enough to do this.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 06-22-2020 3:10 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2020 1:19 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
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