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Author | Topic: Tribute Thread For the Recently Raptured Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Of course all this is completely crazy to you. Yes. I am afraid so. Your post has left me in a state of open mouthed bewilderment as to how people can believe that stuff in this day and age.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So all the talk of abomination, desolation, everlasting dominion, of unequaled distress never to be equaled again, darkened Sun, stars falling from the sky, Angels gathering the elect from the ends of the Earth to the ends of the heavens, Earthquakes, famine....
I could go on. All of that is simply referring to the siege of Jerusalem of 70AD according to you?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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So it's all just hyperbole? Unequalled distress never to be equalled again and all that end-of-times-like description (etc.) is just a fanciful way of talking about the 70AD siege of Jerusalem?
I have to say that seems like an unbelievable cop out. Are other descriptions in the bible equally hyperbolic? At this rate of hyperbole a global flood might equate to a damp Monday in London.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Based on that, there is no way that you ever could have been a "saved" Christian since you never had evidence. It’s Christianity that has insisted on, and promoted, the idea of faith as something noble when everything we know suggests that it’s a desperately lousy way of determining what’s real and what isn’t.
What makes people become believers is the ability to suspend evidence in an objective sense and allow the subjective feelings to dominte. That’s as true of belief in Allah as it is Jesus. Or Zeus. But again that’s also a demonstrably awful method of determining what’s real and what isn’t. I have an overwhelming feeling that this week my lucky numbers will win the lottery. Does this feeling of mine tell us anything about what the winning lottery numbers will be? Why would we (or even you) trust your feelings to tell us anything about the actual existence of deities? The only difference is that my lottery predictions will be demonstrated to be wrong whilst your religious convictions have evolved to protect themselves from the inconvenience of reality by becoming explicitly unfalsifiable.
I rarely give Zeus a second thought. It may come as a shock to you to discover that swathes of humanity rarely give Jesus a second thought. Your attitude to Zeus is directly comparable.
Just another character in literature along with Long John Silver Quite. With some possible basis on a historical character but essentially a fictional entity. Even the character of Long John Silver was based on a real person. All the best fictions are I guess...
Is that really how you see Jesus It really is.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Something confused here. Yes there is. Your post makes no sense to me whatsoever and seems contradictory.
Christian faith is said to be "the evidence of things not seen," So faith is itself evidence?
meaning of course the things reported in the Bible that either can't be seen under normal conditions because they are invisible, or are not seen by the reader just because we weren't there, so must be believed, held by faith. So are they believed on faith or are they evidenced?
There's nothing beyond that implied by biblical faith, no claim that it is a "way of determining what's real and what isn't." But that’s what evidence is - What we use to tell fact from fiction - No?
Faith is evidence of the particular things reported in the Bible. I feel like we are talking different languages. How is faith evidence?
Perhaps it also applies to some invisible things outside the Bible too, but since the idea of faith itself as a way of knowing originated with the Bible (yes it did) I'm only going to claim its application to Biblical revelation.. You say faith is a way of knowing but also say that faith makes no claim to be a way of determining what’s real and what isn’t. How can a way of knowing NOT be a way of determining what’s real and what isn’t......? That’s like saying I know God exists based on faith but I make no claim on whether he is real or not because faith doesn’t tell me that. Huh?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
And all I meant otherwise was that you seem to be saying it's claimed that faith is some kind of way of understanding all kinds of things other than "things unseen" as described in the Bible, but that is taking the idea too far, way out of its intended context. I am saying that having faith in things demonstrably doesn’t work as a method of determining what’s real. I gave the example of lottery numbers but this entire thread is about your conclusion that the rapture was going to happen in a certain time period. You were proven to be wrong about that. When people make falsifiable conclusions based on faith they are repeatedly demonstrated to be wrong more often than not. So why would we expect faith to allow us to draw correct conclusions about things unseen? Based on the track record of faith as evidence those conclusions are almost certainly going to be wrong.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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24 But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. You can’t seriously be claiming that all of this is just a turn of phrase like raining cats and dogs..... And it goes on in similar vein for several passages talking about famine, earthquakes etc. I know you think you have explained all this away by cross referencing passages, stating that he’s flitting between two different subjects etc. etc. But it really isn’t credible to dismiss this as hyperbole or fanciful phraseology in the way that you are doing just because it would be problematic if read as is. Its too explicit and there’s too much of it to just be comparable to raining cats and dogs.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I am absolutely lost as to why you think treating faith as evidence will lead to conclusions that are correct about things unseen when that demonstrably fails so spectacularly when applied to anything we can actually check.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Look a biblical predicted end of times within a generation that didn’t happen would be hugely problematic for any Christian unwilling to just accept it as failed prediction.
I’ve seen various strategies employed to get round this. Many redefine the term ‘generation’. Example1 or Example2 You have chosen instead to claim that Jesus is talking about 2 separate things at the same time, to play linguistic gymnastics with the words used and to invoke other passages in the bible in a bout of cross referencing justification. Do what you need to do I guess....
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I'm just looking for truth as are you I know. It’s been a while since we crossed swords, I’ve been absent a good while, and I apologise for my forthrightness in our first interactions since returning. I can see that you are dealing on multiple fronts and I know that can be time consuming and overwhelming so I won’t add to your woes here. I’ve said what I think. Glad to see you still here at EvC.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Phat writes: You critics endlessly talk about evidence, as if we can only accept a world where everything is absolute according to our terms and defintions. You create this false dichotomy a lot. Previously touched upon in Message 670 There is a huge difference between the characterisation you make of those demanding evidence as some sort of obsessives who walk round measuring things with Geiger counters before they accept something exists and the truth of the matter. You talk about feelings and experiences as evidence of God. But we KNOW that people have these sorts of feelings, experiences and convictions about things (lottery numbers, the rapture occurring in September, alien abductions etc.) all the time and that they aren’t indicative of anything such that they can be called evidence. They have been, and continue to be, cited by other cultures as evidence of holy beings that you yourself dismiss as obvious fictions (e.g Zeus). But when you cite these feelings etc. we are all supposed to ignore all of what we know and simply accept that your feelings are evidential support for this unseeable being you happen to have a deep attachment to for reasons that are clearly consistent with your cultural references (I.e living in a Christian country) Why is it reasonable of you to expect people to do that?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Well I appreciate your honesty. I suspect we all have ‘unreasonable’ why me moments where we rail at God/the-universe/fate/whatever. But you seem to want to put yours out there.
Phat writes: Bottom Line: God owes me. And if He doesn't exist, someone sure owes me! This thinking isn’t going to get you anywhere. I hope you manage to sort things out and feel more at peace with the world soon.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
It really is very simple. Consider how you view Zeus or Vishnu etc and that’s simply how we view your god.
It’s not that hard to grasp surely...
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
You’ve spoken a fair bit about the crucifixion and resurrection based on eye witness accounts. But I wondered what you make of the ascension? Do you believe Jesus ressurected physical body actually rose up to heaven on a cloud? Do similar accounts of Augustus doing similar hold any water in your view?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
So what do you believe witnesses to the ascension did actually see?
Simply from the wiki entry on the ascension of Jesus.
Wki quote: quote:
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